View Poll Results: See OP: Who is responsible for the death of the human shields?

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Thread: Human shields

  1. #131
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    I am absolutely dumbfounded as to how any intelligent person could state that if you point a gun at someone and pull the trigger, you are somehow not responsible for the death of that person.

    If Person A starts shooting at me, and grabs Person B to use as a human shield...

    ... and of necessity I shoot back in defense of my life...

    ... and as a result both Person A (the shooter and shield-grabber) and Person B (the unfortunate shield) are both killed, it is Person A's fault.

    Person A initiated the conflict by trying to shoot me. Person A put Person B's life in danger by grabbing him and using him as a human shield. I did what was necessary to preserve myself; I am not responsible for PersonB's death, person A is responsible, he is the one who put B in the line of fire while forcing me to respond.


    Caveats:
    Perhaps I could have ducked behind cover and just let Person A go.
    ... perhaps instead of leaving, he would have approached my cover and tried to finish me off at close range, still using his human shield.
    ... perhaps I am an LEO tasked with apprehending this person; perhaps he is a known murderer, and if I let him escape with Person B then he is likely to murder him anyway.

    Perhaps I could have done something else...
    ... like what? Rush to HTH range in the open and under fire? Bit suicidal...
    ... try for a head shot? Sure, if possible... but pinpoint precision is always difficult under such conditions.

    Intrestingly enough, as an LEO, I went thru some training on how to deal with being a hostage. We were told the following:
    ... 1. You (the officer) are expendable; we will not release a prisoner or allow a felon to escape to save you.
    ... 2. When SWAT rolls in, hit the floor, because the killing is about to start; they will try not to shoot you, but if you're in the line of fire you may be shot anyway.

    I was transporting a group of 14 post-conviction felons from one place to another, once. At the destination facility, I took them into a secure room to remove their restraints. Before doing so I locked my sidearm outside the room to prevent their possible access to it (SOP). Normally I would have (should have) had some help, but we were short-handed, so I removed all their restraints myself, prior to their induction into the facility.
    Before anyone else could arrive, one convict and his buddies threatened to take me hostage and kill me if they were not released. I explained to them Fact 1 and Fact 2 listed above, and they were deterred and surrendered without further action. (well, I also had a fistful of chains and told them I would definitely kill at least one of them first, but...lol)


    If my department allowed prisoners to get away using officers as human shields, such incidents would probably be more commonplace.

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  2. #132
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    Re: Human shields

    Those who employ this dispictable act are responsible for the deaths.
    It must be remembered that war is hell.
    Side A?
    Side B?
    No vote.
    As far as the felons go, I think they should stay shackled forever, unless they can display a degree of trust.
    Last edited by earthworm; 03-12-10 at 06:06 PM.

  3. #133
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    If Person A starts shooting at me, and grabs Person B to use as a human shield...

    ... and of necessity I shoot back in defense of my life...

    ... and as a result both Person A (the shooter and shield-grabber) and Person B (the unfortunate shield) are both killed, it is Person A's fault.

    Person A initiated the conflict by trying to shoot me. Person A put Person B's life in danger by grabbing him and using him as a human shield. I did what was necessary to preserve myself; I am not responsible for PersonB's death, person A is responsible, he is the one who put B in the line of fire while forcing me to respond.


    Caveats:
    Perhaps I could have ducked behind cover and just let Person A go.
    ... perhaps instead of leaving, he would have approached my cover and tried to finish me off at close range, still using his human shield.
    ... perhaps I am an LEO tasked with apprehending this person; perhaps he is a known murderer, and if I let him escape with Person B then he is likely to murder him anyway.

    Perhaps I could have done something else...
    ... like what? Rush to HTH range in the open and under fire? Bit suicidal...
    ... try for a head shot? Sure, if possible... but pinpoint precision is always difficult under such conditions.

    Intrestingly enough, as an LEO, I went thru some training on how to deal with being a hostage. We were told the following:
    ... 1. You (the officer) are expendable; we will not release a prisoner or allow a felon to escape to save you.
    ... 2. When SWAT rolls in, hit the floor, because the killing is about to start; they will try not to shoot you, but if you're in the line of fire you may be shot anyway.

    I was transporting a group of 14 post-conviction felons from one place to another, once. At the destination facility, I took them into a secure room to remove their restraints. Before doing so I locked my sidearm outside the room to prevent their possible access to it (SOP). Normally I would have (should have) had some help, but we were short-handed, so I removed all their restraints myself, prior to their induction into the facility.
    Before anyone else could arrive, one convict and his buddies threatened to take me hostage and kill me if they were not released. I explained to them Fact 1 and Fact 2 listed above, and they were deterred and surrendered without further action. (well, I also had a fistful of chains and told them I would definitely kill at least one of them first, but...lol)


    If my department allowed prisoners to get away using officers as human shields, such incidents would probably be more commonplace.
    The problem is they follow some zen movement that says killing a human is never good and think that moral absolutes apply equally to everyone.

    I guess they have never met a sociopath.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  4. #134
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    If Person A starts shooting at me, and grabs Person B to use as a human shield...

    ... and of necessity I shoot back in defense of my life...

    ... and as a result both Person A (the shooter and shield-grabber) and Person B (the unfortunate shield) are both killed, it is Person A's fault.

    Person A initiated the conflict by trying to shoot me. Person A put Person B's life in danger by grabbing him and using him as a human shield. I did what was necessary to preserve myself; I am not responsible for PersonB's death, person A is responsible, he is the one who put B in the line of fire while forcing me to respond.


    Caveats:
    Perhaps I could have ducked behind cover and just let Person A go.
    ... perhaps instead of leaving, he would have approached my cover and tried to finish me off at close range, still using his human shield.
    ... perhaps I am an LEO tasked with apprehending this person; perhaps he is a known murderer, and if I let him escape with Person B then he is likely to murder him anyway.

    Perhaps I could have done something else...
    ... like what? Rush to HTH range in the open and under fire? Bit suicidal...
    ... try for a head shot? Sure, if possible... but pinpoint precision is always difficult under such conditions.

    Intrestingly enough, as an LEO, I went thru some training on how to deal with being a hostage. We were told the following:
    ... 1. You (the officer) are expendable; we will not release a prisoner or allow a felon to escape to save you.
    ... 2. When SWAT rolls in, hit the floor, because the killing is about to start; they will try not to shoot you, but if you're in the line of fire you may be shot anyway.

    I was transporting a group of 14 post-conviction felons from one place to another, once. At the destination facility, I took them into a secure room to remove their restraints. Before doing so I locked my sidearm outside the room to prevent their possible access to it (SOP). Normally I would have (should have) had some help, but we were short-handed, so I removed all their restraints myself, prior to their induction into the facility.
    Before anyone else could arrive, one convict and his buddies threatened to take me hostage and kill me if they were not released. I explained to them Fact 1 and Fact 2 listed above, and they were deterred and surrendered without further action. (well, I also had a fistful of chains and told them I would definitely kill at least one of them first, but...lol)


    If my department allowed prisoners to get away using officers as human shields, such incidents would probably be more commonplace.
    I said nothing with regard to justification. That is irrelevant. That it might be the right choice to shoot the human shield does not negate the shooters responsibility in the 'shields' death. The shooter IS responsible for pulling the trigger and aiming the gun. If that bullet kills its target, it is the SHOOTERS responsibility. That doesn't mean it was or wasn't justified, that's not the question.

  5. #135
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    But the Catholics aren't mistranslating it, the non-Catholics are. All you have to do is look at the New Testement. It's pretty clear about turning the other cheek and such.
    That is not true and does not even apply. The word for murder was mistranslated as killing in the KJV. Most other Bibles have corrected this mistake.

    End of story.

    The NT also says murder and not kill.

    Turning the other check has nothing to do with someone trying to kill people. Or people being killed in a war etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    See how that works? The simple fact is you can't say for certain who is getting it wrong, you can only say what you believe

    Only God knows for sure what is or is not a sin.
    Please Tucker, do not try and preach my own Bible to me. I know it inside and out in it's many different translations and versions. As I have shown you are incorrect, and it does not work like that in this case.

    It is not a question of interpretation, it is an admitted mistranslation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    But the Christian's were told, under no uncertain terms, "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."
    Taken out of context and without any real knowledge of the Bible, I can see how you and others would make that mistake.

    It is a lesson about forgiveness and revenge, not literally letting someone beat you or kill you.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 03-12-10 at 07:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  6. #136
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    I said nothing with regard to justification. That is irrelevant. That it might be the right choice to shoot the human shield does not negate the shooters responsibility in the 'shields' death. The shooter IS responsible for pulling the trigger and aiming the gun. If that bullet kills its target, it is the SHOOTERS responsibility. That doesn't mean it was or wasn't justified, that's not the question.
    Okay, they're "responsible", but that does not mean they're "culpable".

  7. #137
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    I said nothing with regard to justification. That is irrelevant. That it might be the right choice to shoot the human shield does not negate the shooters responsibility in the 'shields' death. The shooter IS responsible for pulling the trigger and aiming the gun. If that bullet kills its target, it is the SHOOTERS responsibility. That doesn't mean it was or wasn't justified, that's not the question.


    I'm afraid redneck ex-cops like me don't understand such fine distinctions.

    Well, ok in a sense I do. Legally, if you claim to have killed someone in self-defense then you are considered to have admitted to the crime of homicide, while claiming the justification of self-defense. If the justification is accepted, then you walk and are free from all criminal penalty.

    Frankly that never made sense to me. If it is justified and you go free, then you were right and not guilty of any crime. You were not "responsible" in a criminal sense.

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  8. #138
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    If Person A starts shooting at me, and grabs Person B to use as a human shield...

    ... and of necessity I shoot back in defense of my life...

    ... and as a result both Person A (the shooter and shield-grabber) and Person B (the unfortunate shield) are both killed, it is Person A's fault.

    Person A initiated the conflict by trying to shoot me. Person A put Person B's life in danger by grabbing him and using him as a human shield. I did what was necessary to preserve myself; I am not responsible for PersonB's death, person A is responsible, he is the one who put B in the line of fire while forcing me to respond.
    I still think you would be responsible as well. You took actions that directly resulted in the death of the human shield (firing back). Would you be guilty in a legal sense? No. Would your actions have been justified? Yes. But you still bear an equal share of responsibility in the human shield's death.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  9. #139
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    Re: Human shields

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    I still think you would be responsible as well. You took actions that directly resulted in the death of the human shield (firing back). Would you be guilty in a legal sense? No. Would your actions have been justified? Yes. But you still bear an equal share of responsibility in the human shield's death.
    I still want to know, what does this mean? Responsibility with no responsibility legally is what?

    I mean if it was my responsibility to clean up the dogs mess, but I never did and someone else did it for me and I was punished, I am obviously responsible. Now lets remove the punishment, this also removes any real responsibility as if I do it or not is now irrelevant.

    Can someone explain how I would still be responsible?
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  10. #140
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    Re: Human shields

    Don't feel bad Blackdog, I am not "gettin' it" either.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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