View Poll Results: Are Rights Natural?

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  • Yes.

    27 40.30%
  • No.

    32 47.76%
  • Other.

    6 8.96%
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    16 23.88%
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Thread: Are Rights Natural?

  1. #71
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    They may not share our social rights, but all humans have the same base natural rights which are founded in life, liberty, and property.
    The problem with that statement is that life, liberty, and property are defined by society. (Yes even life is subject to social definition, examples include brain death, when a fetus becomes a life, and viruses). In fact all language is socially defined.

    You mentioned that Locke and other philosophers have come to these conclusions by deduction, which is a social phenomenon.

    Really, all you seem to be saying is "I prefer this definition of rights, it makes sense to me and I think it will work for me and other people." And really what you are defining as rights is a set of morals that you think people and governments should follow. But all of that leads to it just being a social construct since all of it, the language, the logic, etc, is an invention of the human mind.

    Personally, I think those principals are good ideas, but all they are is principals, there is nothing natural about them.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-02-10 at 12:06 PM.

  2. #72
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    While thoughts might be more difficult, certainly someone can theoretically hook you up to a machine that would take control of your muscles, or someone can do pretty much anything they want to with your body against your will, presuming no one stops them from doing so. I suppose it's even possible that there could be a drug that would brainwash you and make you think and act in a manner you otherwise wouldn't. So certainly, it is possible, thus doing away with the "cannot be taken away" claim.
    There is no technology currently that detailed to do as you want. If we're allowing for sci-fi, then maybe. Regardless, I cannot transfer ownership of my body, ownership of it is innate to my consciousness.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #73
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    There is no technology currently that detailed to do as you want. If we're allowing for sci-fi, then maybe. Regardless, I cannot transfer ownership of my body, ownership of it is innate to my consciousness.
    If someone forcibly removes a kidney and transplants it to someone else, does this statement still hold true?

  4. #74
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    The problem with that statement is that life, liberty, and property are defined by society. (Yes even life is subject to social definition, examples include brain death and viruses). In fact all language is socially defined.

    You mentioned that Locke and other philosophers have come to these conclusions by deduction, which is a social phenomenon.

    Really, all you seem to be saying is "I prefer this definition of rights, it makes sense to me and I think it will work for me and other people." And really what you are defining as rights is a set of morals that you think people and governments should follow. But all of that leads to it just being a social construct since all of it, the language, the logic, etc, is an invention of the human mind.
    Lots of things are inventions of the human mind. But that doesn't make them any less worthwhile. In fact, Immanuel Kant would agree in a way that natural rights are product of the human mind. In so much that he asserts that natural rights can be derived through reason alone. Rights are very much a philosophical discussion, so what's wrong with bringing in philosophy?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #75
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    If someone forcibly removes a kidney and transplants it to someone else, does this statement still hold true?
    Do you have control of my consciousness? Do you think for me?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  6. #76
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Lots of things are inventions of the human mind. But that doesn't make them any less worthwhile. In fact, Immanuel Kant would agree in a way that natural rights are product of the human mind. In so much that he asserts that natural rights can be derived through reason alone. Rights are very much a philosophical discussion, so what's wrong with bringing in philosophy?
    There's nothing wrong with it, but the fact that we even have to think about it means there is an element of human in it and not nature. Because it comes from humans, it is subject to subjectivity and that opens the question of "which definition is best? Locke's, Jeffry Dahmer's, Confucius', Lao Tse's, Ayn Rand's, Neitche's, etc?" If Locke's is best, can that be proven objectively?

    If it can't than it simply a preference.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-02-10 at 12:13 PM.

  7. #77
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    There is no technology currently that detailed to do as you want. If we're allowing for sci-fi, then maybe. Regardless, I cannot transfer ownership of my body, ownership of it is innate to my consciousness.
    What difference does it make, this is a conceptual discussion, you have to allow for theoreticals in it's debate. If someone implanted electrodes in your brain and could use them to make you do or think anything that they wanted, what happens to your "rights"? Are they taken away? Why or why not? You're the one that made the claim that they cannot be taken away, I want to see if you can actually defend it or if you just like repeating the claim over and over.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  8. #78
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Sigh

    Yes maam they do. Try abdicating natural rights, you can't. All humans share the same base natural rights.
    Sigh...

    OK...

    Sometimes talking on this board i 'feel' like Cephus's lion avatar 'looks'...

    sorry about the maam thing...gender association by Avatar...

  9. #79
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    What difference does it make, this is a conceptual discussion, you have to allow for theoreticals in it's debate. If someone implanted electrodes in your brain and could use them to make you do or think anything that they wanted, what happens to your "rights"? Are they taken away? Why or why not? You're the one that made the claim that they cannot be taken away, I want to see if you can actually defend it or if you just like repeating the claim over and over.

    I think I have an answer to that!

  10. #80
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    social construct

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