View Poll Results: Are Rights Natural?

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  • Yes.

    27 40.30%
  • No.

    32 47.76%
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    6 8.96%
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    16 23.88%
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Thread: Are Rights Natural?

  1. #51
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You think that rights are magical? That acknowledging their existence makes the boogie man go away or all the bad things go away? What sort of childish thought is that? Natural rights doesn't mean that everything will be fair and that people will have their rights recognized. It's a premise for the limitation of government power against the People. We all do have the same base set of innate and inalienable rights all based in life, liberty, and property. Rightful government is constructed to adhere and be restricted by the rights of the individual. Are there ****ty places in the world? Yes. Does that mean that rights don't exist? Of course not, that's not a logical conclusion in the least.
    Not magical...mythical. I think its a flawed idea. A WONDERFUL idea...but flawed.

    WE in the US enjoy certain rights NOT because we are endowed by our creator of these rights, but because after thrwoing off an oppressive regime that DIDNT believe in those rights, formed a government with a constitution that DECLARED the rights we now enjoy to be mandated and our rule of law to support those rights.

    But make no mistake...what we in the US consider 'rights' are not at all respected...honored or enjoyed in other places.

    Here, we have a 'right' to a fair trial. Other places? Not so much. We have a right to adequate representation. There? Forget it.

    What makes us different?

  2. #52
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    That's because not all rights are natural. The natural rights as argued by Locke or Paine would revolve around concepts of life, liberty, and property. The essentials to existence basically. But there are rights which arise from positive law and social contract as well.
    See? We dont disagree after all...

  3. #53
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Not sure I understand what this is suppose to mean.
    There are lots of people who seem to think that rights are these magical, ethereal things that just float around waiting to be discovered. Apparently, they transcend social boundaries and apply equally to everyone everywhere, but nobody can explain how that works or why it ought to be true or even how one discovers one of these mystical "rights" in the first place.

    Rights are just things that groups of people decide ought to apply within their group, nothing more.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  4. #54
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I would say that "rights" that come about by positive laws are actually privileges.
    That's another word for them. They sometimes become codified into our concepts of rights, which is why Locke made exception for them. The idea that rights can be drawn from either natural law or positive law had been around for some time. Madison actually was key in bringing about the idea that rights can be born from social contract as well.

    I think the difference between the rights is an important one to make.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    And no one can take away your right to murder, which is why I consider it a natural right. They can, however, add consequences to the exercise of that right.
    I wouldn't say you really have a right to murder, less it was in protection of your own life, liberty, or property. Else you've infringed upon the rights of others, and that's where your rights stop. No one can take away your ability to murder, you have control over your brain and muscles. No one can take that away.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #55
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    Yeah seriously doesn't he know its having a gun that secures your rights?
    Sometimes you make some of the stupidest most illogical follow on comments on this whole board.

    How the hell do you go from 'A' to 'carrot'?

  6. #56
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    You have a right to food, you just don't have a right to expect someone else to give it to you.
    Says who? Lots of people are making claims, I'd like to see it backed up with evidence or credible reasoning.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  7. #57
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Not magical...mythical. I think its a flawed idea. A WONDERFUL idea...but flawed.

    WE in the US enjoy certain rights NOT because we are endowed by our creator of these rights, but because after thrwoing off an oppressive regime that DIDNT believe in those rights, formed a government with a constitution that DECLARED the rights we now enjoy to be mandated and our rule of law to support those rights.

    But make no mistake...what we in the US consider 'rights' are not at all respected...honored or enjoyed in other places.

    Here, we have a 'right' to a fair trial. Other places? Not so much. We have a right to adequate representation. There? Forget it.

    What makes us different?
    Things such as trial by jury would be something Madison would refer to as social right.

    Just because some people can't exercise certain rights doesn't mean that they don't have it. It just means they live in tyranny and oppression.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  8. #58
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Sometimes you make some of the stupidest most illogical follow on comments on this whole board.

    How the hell do you go from 'A' to 'carrot'?
    Maybe its about carrot and not A? And speaks to a larger points about what I read elsewhere in these forums on a virtual daily basis.

  9. #59
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    See? We dont disagree after all...
    Yes we do. For while I acknowledge that rights can be born from different sources (natural law, positive law, social contract), you seem to persist in your statement that natural rights do not exist.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #60
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Things such as trial by jury would be something Madison would refer to as social right.

    Just because some people can't exercise certain rights doesn't mean that they don't have it. It just means they live in tyranny and oppression.
    and dont have access to 'our' rights? Agreed.

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