View Poll Results: Are Rights Natural?

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    27 40.30%
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    32 47.76%
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Thread: Are Rights Natural?

  1. #31
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    Rights are natural; the problem lies in enforcing them.
    You don't enforce rights, you protect them.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  2. #32
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    You get how silly that sounds...correct? Rights are 'natural'...and must be 'enforced'...so if you dont HAVE food water and shelter, who violated your rights?
    Nothing silly about the way it sounds. If my speech rights are violated, I fully expect government to step in and enforce said rights. Failure to do so takes rights out of the natural category and places them into the societal construct category.

  3. #33
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    I believe that anything that can reasonably be done is a natural right. In fact, I believe there is a natural right to murder another person.

    The difference in my thinking is that there exist both inalienable rights and alienable rights.

    An inalienable right is one that can be freely exercised without restraint or society induced punishment.

    An alienable right is one where one cannot freely exercise the right without restriction or society induced punishment.

    It is society that dictates which rights are alienable, and which are inalienable.

    For example, I still have the natural right to kill someone in a society that alienates that right. I just cannot do so without restiction or society induced punishment.

    But nobody can legitimately prevent me from exercising that right, they can only add consequences to my exercising of that right.

    Our society primarily sets the boundary between alienable and inalienable rights at those rights rights that do infringe upon the rights of others, and those that do not infringe upon the rights of others, respectively.

    But this is not always the case. Our society also alienates some rights that do not infringe upon the rights of others, such as certain types of personal intoxicant intake or certain types of sexual commerce between consenting adults.

    But generally, everything is a right, it's just that society seeks to remove the free exercise of certain rights for the greater good. In any society, the impetus for the alienation of certain rights is based on a shared "moral" viewpoint.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  4. #34
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    Nothing silly about the way it sounds. If my speech rights are violated, I fully expect government to step in and enforce said rights. Failure to do so takes rights out of the natural category and places them into the societal construct category.
    Which government?

  5. #35
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Because we have this fantasy governing body that creates this fantasy concept of human rights...a code...a set of definitions. Were it not so then they could not ACCUSE China of violating those human rights.
    I'm not going to be able to help you understand the concept of rights, because you are trying to monopolize the discussion to your own constructs. You are missing the point that all humans are born with certain needs and desires and those supercede government, these needs and desires are older than the social contract and law. The purpose of good law isn't to control every facet of human life, rather it is to protect against the worst desires of human nature such as murder, robbery, etc. Anarchy is slightly less desireable than a small government which is much more desireable than a full authoritarian government. You seem to play a nice appeal to authority game, but don't understand that they suppress rights by monopolizing force, they must use that force and coercion to suppress the most natural of rights, not the other way around.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  6. #36
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Sigh...

    OK...I will accept your word.

    We all have these human rights...basic...decent rights...survival. Food. Water. Shelter. Safety.

    People in Rwanda are getting screwed. All the worlds starving...homeless people...thank goodness they ahve their 'rights' to all those things...
    You think that rights are magical? That acknowledging their existence makes the boogie man go away or all the bad things go away? What sort of childish thought is that? Natural rights doesn't mean that everything will be fair and that people will have their rights recognized. It's a premise for the limitation of government power against the People. We all do have the same base set of innate and inalienable rights all based in life, liberty, and property. Rightful government is constructed to adhere and be restricted by the rights of the individual. Are there ****ty places in the world? Yes. Does that mean that rights don't exist? Of course not, that's not a logical conclusion in the least.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  7. #37
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Which government?
    The Martian government.

  8. #38
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I believe that anything that can reasonably be done is a natural right. In fact, I believe there is a natural right to murder another person.

    The difference in my thinking is that there exist both inalienable rights and alienable rights.

    An inalienable right is one that can be freely exercised without restraint or society induced punishment.

    An alienable right is one where one cannot freely exercise the right without restriction or society induced punishment.

    It is society that dictates which rights are alienable, and which are inalienable.

    For example, I still have the natural right to kill someone in a society that alienates that right. I just cannot do so without restiction or society induced punishment.

    But nobody can legitimately prevent me from exercising that right, they can only add consequences to my exercising of that right.

    Our society primarily sets the boundary between alienable and inalienable rights at those rights rights that do infringe upon the rights of others, and those that do not infringe upon the rights of others, respectively.

    But this is not always the case. Our society also alienates some rights that do not infringe upon the rights of others, such as certain types of personal intoxicant intake or certain types of sexual commerce between consenting adults.

    But generally, everything is a right, it's just that society seeks to remove the free exercise of certain rights for the greater good. In any society, the impetus for the alienation of certain rights is based on a shared "moral" viewpoint.
    So from your perspective our rights extend solely to what we do...what we individually have the ability to do and choose to do and ultimately do. I agree with that...provided that its realistic. I can call myself the president of Microsoft...I cant necessarily BE the president of microsoft.

    I can have a desire to provide for my family and bust my hump to acheive that....OK...Im good with that. I can even violate another persons physical and emotional well being. Just so long as I recognize my society has laws and i fill face certain consequences. Much more reasonable.

  9. #39
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The difference in my thinking is that there exist both inalienable rights and alienable rights.
    That's because not all rights are natural. The natural rights as argued by Locke or Paine would revolve around concepts of life, liberty, and property. The essentials to existence basically. But there are rights which arise from positive law and social contract as well.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #40
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    That's because not all rights are natural. The natural rights as argued by Locke or Paine would revolve around concepts of life, liberty, and property. The essentials to existence basically. But there are rights which arise from positive law and social contract as well.
    I would say that all rights are natural, but not all rights are equal.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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