View Poll Results: Are Rights Natural?

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  • Yes.

    27 40.30%
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    32 47.76%
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    6 8.96%
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    16 23.88%
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Thread: Are Rights Natural?

  1. #321
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jray573
    Rights are given by nature, to be restricted or protected by society and government.
    Says who? This is the question I keep asking over and over and all the libertarians can do is keep repeating the unsupported claim. How do you know "rights are given by nature"? Where did you get that information? How did you verify it? How, exactly, do you determine precisely what rights are given by nature and which ones are not? These are important questions that apparently no libertarian is able to answer.

    If there were no society or government what rights would we have?
    Zero. If there was no law and order, then things would be lawless and disorderly. Humans impose law and order on their societies to make those societies safer, healthier and more productive. Unfortunately, there are people who cannot justify their ideas with logic or reason, thus they try to impose their ideas by fiat, calling on an unchallengable authority figure as the source of their ideas, be it nature or a god or whatnot.

    Sorry, "this is true because it's true" is irrational. The only thing anyone ought to care about is *WHY* you think it's right, what evidence you can present to demonstrate that it's right, what course of logical reasoning you have gone through to determine that it's right, etc.

    Until you can do that, you're just spouting a load of nonsense.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  2. #322
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jray573 View Post
    It would seem to me that the difference in opinion here is due solely to our definition of the word "rights." How would you define it?
    A legal guarantee. Such as the right of free speech per the first amendment of the constitution. Or voting rights in a corporation due to stock ownership.

  3. #323
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Says who? This is the question I keep asking over and over and all the libertarians can do is keep repeating the unsupported claim. How do you know "rights are given by nature"? Where did you get that information? How did you verify it? How, exactly, do you determine precisely what rights are given by nature and which ones are not? These are important questions that apparently no libertarian is able to answer.
    Lol, you might actually be the most angry person I have ever debated with. I guess this isn't exclusive to religion. I attempted to explain my reasoning after the comment you quoted. I'll try to be a little more descriptive.

    I like how Thomas Paine broke it down in "Rights of Man." How at creation, or at man's beginning, however you want to look at it, man was completely unrestricted. Do you disagree with that? Also, how would this limitless freedom be considered different from rights? If you think it differs, I would love an explanation. Perhaps in this is where the confusion between our two lines of thinking lies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    If there was no law and order, then things would be lawless and disorderly. Humans impose law and order on their societies to make those societies safer, healthier and more productive.
    Yeah, I agree 100% with this statement. Which is why I claim that civilization restricts and protects the rights they desire. All laws restrict freedom, society chooses which rights should be protected, and which should be restricted. Libertarians tend to believe that rights should be extended to the greatest extent that allows the rights of others to be protected. So if what you are doing doesn't hurt someone else, you should have the right to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Unfortunately, there are people who cannot justify their ideas with logic or reason, thus they try to impose their ideas by fiat, calling on an unchallengable authority figure as the source of their ideas, be it nature or a god or whatnot.

    Sorry, "this is true because it's true" is irrational. The only thing anyone ought to care about is *WHY* you think it's right, what evidence you can present to demonstrate that it's right, what course of logical reasoning you have gone through to determine that it's right, etc.

    Until you can do that, you're just spouting a load of nonsense.
    Yeah, wow, I don't even know how to respond to this. I think I provided enough perspective that we don't need to resort to insult, but feel free to debate as you like. I don't believe that I stated anything was true because it was true.

  4. #324
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jray573 View Post
    It would seem to me that the difference in opinion here is due solely to our definition of the word "rights." How would you define it?
    I have asked this question MANY times of those who believe in natural rights and have never gotten an answer. How would YOU define rights?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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  5. #325
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    A legal guarantee. Such as the right of free speech per the first amendment of the constitution. Or voting rights in a corporation due to stock ownership.
    hmm... yeah, I see the right to free speech as natural. Governments before decided this should be restricted. Our Government decided to protect it.

    How would a complete lack of government impact your right to free speech?

    Voting rights would be a different matter. Of course those rights aren't natural.

  6. #326
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jray573 View Post
    Lol, you might actually be the most angry person I have ever debated with. I guess this isn't exclusive to religion. I attempted to explain my reasoning after the comment you quoted. I'll try to be a little more descriptive.

    I like how Thomas Paine broke it down in "Rights of Man." How at creation, or at man's beginning, however you want to look at it, man was completely unrestricted. Do you disagree with that? Also, how would this limitless freedom be considered different from rights? If you think it differs, I would love an explanation. Perhaps in this is where the confusion between our two lines of thinking lies.
    There was no structure to support and enforce those rights. They had lots of freedoms, yes, but no rights since a right is a legal construct.

    At least that's my take on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jray573 View Post
    hmm... yeah, I see the right to free speech as natural. Governments before decided this should be restricted. Our Government decided to protect it.

    How would a complete lack of government impact your right to free speech?

    Voting rights would be a different matter. Of course those rights aren't natural.
    If I was alone in the woods, yes I could say anything I wanted to, but I don't see how it would become a right, since at that point the distinction is irrelevant. I do agree that it would be a freedom.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-13-10 at 06:11 PM.

  7. #327
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I have asked this question MANY times of those who believe in natural rights and have never gotten an answer. How would YOU define rights?
    I believe rights are associated with freedom. In our most natural state we are free to do exactly as we please. We are restricted only by our personal morality, or our ability to protect ourselves from the unrestricted rights of others.

    I don't believe that the Constitution creates the right for American's to have free speech, I believe it protects it. A law against it would restrict it.

    When creating a government you determine which rights should be protected, and which should be restricted.

    So my definition of Rights would be whatever an individual was free to do.



    On a side note- For some reason I always thought Thomas Paine was a favored source among the left. I guess it was because of the person who showed it to me, and the leftist website named after him... I'm a little surprised to hear so much opposition to the ideas of natural rights. Interesting debate.

  8. #328
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jray573 View Post
    I believe rights are associated with freedom. In our most natural state we are free to do exactly as we please. We are restricted only by our personal morality, or our ability to protect ourselves from the unrestricted rights of others.

    I don't believe that the Constitution creates the right for American's to have free speech, I believe it protects it. A law against it would restrict it.

    When creating a government you determine which rights should be protected, and which should be restricted.

    So my definition of Rights would be whatever an individual was free to do.



    On a side note- For some reason I always thought Thomas Paine was a favored source among the left. I guess it was because of the person who showed it to me, and the leftist website named after him... I'm a little surprised to hear so much opposition to the ideas of natural rights. Interesting debate.
    To me, what you are talking about are not rights. They are desires or values. I desire to speak about whatever I want. Doesn't mean I can. My values say that I can speak about whatever I want. But if the society in which I live has different values, I do not have the right to act on that desire or value. A "right" is something that is permitted or allowed. There is nothing inalienable about them. They are relative based on a society, just as those individual desires or values are based on and individual... or society.

    And the natural rights position is more of a libertarian position.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  9. #329
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    There was no structure to support and enforce those rights. They had lots of freedoms, yes, but no rights since a right is a legal construct.

    At least that's my take on it.



    If I was alone in the woods, yes I could say anything I wanted to, but I don't see how it would become a right, since at that point the distinction is irrelevant. I do agree that it would be a freedom.
    So if you would define a right as a legal guarantee, would you not consider a law against speech as a restriction of rights? And if you saw such law as a restriction of rights, from what base do you consider a right?

  10. #330
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    To me, what you are talking about are not rights. They are desires or values. I desire to speak about whatever I want. Doesn't mean I can. My values say that I can speak about whatever I want. But if the society in which I live has different values, I do not have the right to act on that desire or value. A "right" is something that is permitted or allowed. There is nothing inalienable about them. They are relative based on a society, just as those individual desires or values are based on and individual... or society.

    And the natural rights position is more of a libertarian position.
    Desires and values do determine rights within a society or government. Basically, it determines which ones should be protected, and which should be restricted.

    Values and desires have nothing to do with freedoms. It deals purely with ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    A "right" is something that is permitted or allowed.
    This in no way conflicts with what I claimed about rights. If anything, it supports it.

    If society and government ceased to exist what would we be permitted or allowed to do? Only from there can we determine what our values and desires are, and only from that can we determine what our rights should be as a society. Society does not create permission or allowance, it only determines what should be so.

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