View Poll Results: Are Rights Natural?

Voters
67. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes.

    27 40.30%
  • No.

    32 47.76%
  • Other.

    6 8.96%
  • Rootabega.

    16 23.88%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 30 of 36 FirstFirst ... 202829303132 ... LastLast
Results 291 to 300 of 352

Thread: Are Rights Natural?

  1. #291
    Sage
    Ikari's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 01:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    54,124

    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    The types of arguments and debates necessary to truly start to discuss the philosophical question of rights is a bit beyond that which can be accomplished on an internet politics board. There is a lot of background and research to be done in order to being to understand the question.

    http://mises.org/journals/jls/6_3/6_3_5.pdf
    This is a paper, it's ok. It has decent citation so as to point in a better direction. But in this paper, they ask can natural rights exist. It's not a question into which natural rights exist; but a fundamental, can they exist. It's interesting enough. You should give it a read.

    Regardless, your comments have nothing to do with the bolded portion of that quote of mine.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #292
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Thanks. I will give it a read.

    The point of my response is that it sounded like you were making an accusation of people basing their beliefs off the emotional appeal of one stance or another. I think if people do that and than make policy based on what they prefer instead of what they observe, the results could be a disaster (of course logic based stances are not immune to that problem as well). Also, I like to think I am more honest than that (even though it wasn't directed at me). That's all.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-09-10 at 11:30 AM.

  3. #293
    Sage
    Ikari's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 01:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    54,124

    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    I was not saying that of the whole, I was saying it of the few.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  4. #294
    Sage
    Cephus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    CA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:51 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    29,775

    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari
    Of course not. Natural rights would even recognize that because of their nature. Your logic would say that if society was ok with baby eating or old man beating, that you have a right to do so. Natural rights would say that's always wrong as you are infringing upon the natural rights of others. Then there are other things such as building codes, etc. which come in through a form of social contract. Then there are legal "rights" as well. Just because this other stuff exists doesn't mean natural rights don't. It seems to be the crux of the argument for some of the more zealous of the anti-rights folk. Natural rights are found from considering the natural state. The exercise of these rights can be suppressed with force, but it doesn't mean that they don't exist. Social contract and legal law can apply force too, adding more rules or clarifying existing ones. Again, doesn't mean the natural right doesn't exist.
    If society did determine that eating babies was fine, then you would, in fact, have a right to do so. That doesn't mean that it's necessarily "right" in the philosophical sense, the concept of "right and wrong" is entirely subjective. There are people who believe that their religion gives them the right to do some pretty awful things and in some countries, they're right. It doesn't fly in countries that don't grant that right however.

    Ultimately, you're constructing a set of standards which have no basis in reality. It's philosophical wishful thinking. You accept it because, for whatever reason, you want it to be true. You have done nothing to demonstrate that it actually is true beyond your own wants and desires. You keep asserting "this exists", we ask you how you know and you just repeat "this exists". It's like the religious person above asserting that he has a right to beat his wife, his religion tells him so. Great, that and a $5 bill will get you a cup of coffee. By the same token, a woman in a country where wife beating is legal can stand up and demand her "rights" all she wants, she's still going to get beaten.

    In the end, you're just standing on your little soapbox screaming "I have a right to fly but evolution has failed me!" You might wish these rights existed but you've done nothing to demonstrate that they actually do outside of your own head and wishful thinking. Until you can prove that they have some actual application, they're pointless. You still can't answer how you know they exist, all you can do is assert that they do.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

    Blog me! YouTube me! VidMe me!

  5. #295
    Sage
    Ikari's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 01:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    54,124

    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    There may be places which use the force of government or even religion to suppress the exercise of rights. But the rights still exist. The woman living in a country which oppresses women has the same rights as any other human would. She is justified in her rage against those whom do her harm and the government which has failed to protect her rights. Revolt is justified. In the end, rights in general are philosophical in nature and one has to turn to philosophical arguments to define and understand the concepts at hand. But just because something is philosophical doesn't mean that it has no merit or weight. Fortunately, humans are quite capable of understanding and using abstract ideas.

    In the end, either you think that on some level all humans are equal or all humans are innately unequal with some whom are better and more deserving than others based on nothing more than chance. Being king doesn't make one great, any man can be king if serendipity shines upon them. As such, I have not seen sufficient argument to show that fundamentally humans are different.

    "However, to borrow another characteristic concept from Kant, "as legislating members of the Kingdom of Ends," as creatures prescribing laws to apply to all such creatures, creatures adopting and pursuing ends for themselves, we ourselves can lay it down that all rational agents are to be respected in their pursuit of their own chosen ends; or, in the favorite words of a more recent generation, their doings of their own things. Indeed, if we are committed to prescribing principles to apply equally to all such beings, principles which as ourselves such beings we could will to become universal law, then it would seem that we can scarcely fail to prescribe: both that all individuals must have the right to pursue their own ends, save in so far as this pursuit violates the equal rights of others; and that everyone must be under the reciprocal and corresponding obligation to respect those equal rights of everyone else.

    The notions of equality and of reciprocity enter here because no one can
    consistently claim such universal human rights for themselves save in so far as
    they concede to others the same rights, the same liberties. The content of such rights cannot but in consequence be the same for all. An agreeably unhackneyed statement is provided by the 1945 constitution of Kemalist Turkey: "Every Turk is born free and lives free. He has liberty to do anything which does not harm other persons. The natural right of the individual to liberty is limited only by the liberties enjoyed by his fellow citizens." The practice presents every kind of problem. The principle is luminous."
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  6. #296
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    You two sound like an old married couple.

  7. #297
    Sage
    Cephus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    CA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:51 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    29,775

    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    You two sound like an old married couple.
    It's debating with a fanatic, someone who is so mired in their philosophy that they can't even comprehend that it could be wrong. There's only so much that you can debate with someone who claims the sky is purple polka-dotted and ignores all evidence and argument to the contrary before it becomes a complete waste of time.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

    Blog me! YouTube me! VidMe me!

  8. #298
    Sage
    Ikari's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 01:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    54,124

    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    It's debating with a fanatic, someone who is so mired in their philosophy that they can't even comprehend that it could be wrong. There's only so much that you can debate with someone who claims the sky is purple polka-dotted and ignores all evidence and argument to the contrary before it becomes a complete waste of time.
    Indeed, I am debating against such a person. So mired in your hate of libertarians and desire to put them down whenever possible, you've avoided debate and refuse to even hear the argument. People can post philosophers whom developed the theory, books or even papers, but it's all for not. So encrusted in their hatred, these people will not debate. They will merely gleefully claim that the other is a fool or living in fantasy without so much as offering any intelligent thought to the matter. So consumed are they by their bigotry that they cannot help themselves. They wish to stand on high upon their soap box and declare all whom they despise as ignorant, or believing in fantasy.

    Poor, hateful beings. Perhaps one day they'll grow up, become an actual adult, behave like one, and participate in debate in some meaningful manner other than running into a thread spreading insults against groups of people they hate. Those people already have a home, it's called XBox Live.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #299
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    My point is made.

    You both should calm down or stop because nothing is being accomplished.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-09-10 at 03:57 PM.

  10. #300
    Sage
    Ikari's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 01:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    54,124

    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    My point is made.

    You both should calm down or stop because nothing is being accomplished.
    I'm not angry, I was just pointing out the obstructionist behavior of one of the more anti-libertarian people on the board...maybe the second most so.

    And if we act like a married couple, than Cephus is the poster child for domestic abuse!

    ZING!
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

Page 30 of 36 FirstFirst ... 202829303132 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •