View Poll Results: Are Rights Natural?

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  • Yes.

    27 40.30%
  • No.

    32 47.76%
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    6 8.96%
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    16 23.88%
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Thread: Are Rights Natural?

  1. #281
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    Cephus's Avatar
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I mean, if you had actually pointed out where I was wrong, I suppose that would have been one thing. But you didn't. You merely carte blanche ignored any argument or reference to philosopher and deemed me wrong without any consideration. As I said, it is now clear you skills of debate and integrity.
    I've pointed out that you're just making assertions without providing a shred of evidence that said assertions are factually correct, logical, well-reasoned or defensible. You're pulling "natural rights" out of thin air without any evidence that they actually exist. You haven't demonstrated that these rights actually exist as anything more than a figment of your imagination, that there is a criteria for determining what is a "natural right" and what is not, and why your criteria is factually correct, etc. These are questions that need answering and questions you are not answering.

    But instead of actually coming up with answers, you instead decided to attack me and claim that I had somehow missed your answers. If that were the case, you should have been able to point to your answers with direct links and I could have gone to look at them. Instead, you started calling names and you're still doing it. Color me unimpressed.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  2. #282
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by jr602az View Post
    Other: If it's human rights than it's natural.
    Please expand on your statement.
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  3. #283
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Yes, you keep saying that, now let's see you DEMONSTRATE it. You know, back it up with evidence?
    How do you "provide evidence" of something that is self-evident?

    I have ownership over myself, and I endeavor to obey myself. This is true of all humans; it is "self", what is most inherent to our being. It belongs entirely to YOU and no one else. No one can ever "have" that part of you.

    You're just wallowing in pure nihlism with your silly argument. You can't "prove" yourself; it simply is.

  4. #284
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    How do you "provide evidence" of something that is self-evident?

    I have ownership over myself, and I endeavor to obey myself. This is true of all humans; it is "self", what is most inherent to our being. It belongs entirely to YOU and no one else. No one can ever "have" that part of you.

    You're just wallowing in pure nihlism with your silly argument. You can't "prove" yourself; it simply is.
    Apparently it's not self-evident, otherwise everyone would have the same view. It might be evident to you, but you haven't demonstrated how or why you came to that conclusion, you just keep repeating it as if that somehow makes it true.

    Repeating the same unsupported claim doesn't make it any better supported.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  5. #285
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    I think people often get the 'right to pursue' while being protected by the government mixed up with a 'requirement for the government to provide the right.'

    You have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (or property, switch and bait) which means you can pursue it if you like - not thta the government must provide it for you.
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  6. #286
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    fyi Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Are rights natural?

    Of course.

    But let's define a right. A right is something you do for yourself. You have a right to live your own life, practice your own lifestyle, and to earn a living. You have a right to own, build, protect, and manage your property, to voice your opinion, to exercise or not exercise a religion, to educate yourself and your children as you see fit, to travel, etc.

    You do NOT have a right to force others to provide things for you--education, food, housing, health care, etc.

    You do NOT have a right to force others to live or manage their properties in manners they do not approve.

  7. #287
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I'm pretty well entrenched in the Natural Rights camp. I believe that the understanding of what rights are is innate to our intellect and were in fact discovered through it. I can't really see how rights could be anything but natural. There are privilege and law which we can use the government for, but those things are not rights. Rights exist above the power of the government, rightful government anyway.
    The only NATURAL right is the right to kill or beat those that are weaker than you and get killed or beaten by those stronger than you. Anything beyond that is CREATED/CIVILIZED rights.
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  8. #288
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by ronpaulvoter
    But let's define a right. A right is something you do for yourself. You have a right to live your own life, practice your own lifestyle, and to earn a living. You have a right to own, build, protect, and manage your property, to voice your opinion, to exercise or not exercise a religion, to educate yourself and your children as you see fit, to travel, etc.
    But that's blatantly untrue. You do not have a right to have a lifestyle eating babies or beating old people with a stick. You do not have a right to earn a living by stealing. You do not have a right to build property that falls outside of local ordnances or building codes, nor can you manage your property in a manner that violates local rules. You cannot voice your opinion if said opinion slanders another, or if it reveals military secrets to the enemy. Depending on where you live, you may not have a right to exercise, or not exercise a religion, just ask the people in Iran. Further, in those places, if you're female, you may not have a right to educate yourself or your female children.

    Amazing how these so-called "rights" fall apart under even the most cursory of evaluation.
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  9. #289
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Of course not. Natural rights would even recognize that because of their nature. Your logic would say that if society was ok with baby eating or old man beating, that you have a right to do so. Natural rights would say that's always wrong as you are infringing upon the natural rights of others. Then there are other things such as building codes, etc. which come in through a form of social contract. Then there are legal "rights" as well. Just because this other stuff exists doesn't mean natural rights don't. It seems to be the crux of the argument for some of the more zealous of the anti-rights folk. Natural rights are found from considering the natural state. The exercise of these rights can be suppressed with force, but it doesn't mean that they don't exist. Social contract and legal law can apply force too, adding more rules or clarifying existing ones. Again, doesn't mean the natural right doesn't exist.

    So I guess it's not so blatantly untrue and that it doesn't quite fall apart as well as you may have hoped.
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  10. #290
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So I guess it's not so blatantly untrue and that it doesn't quite fall apart as well as you may have hoped.
    I just want to comment on the bold part. I would love it f it if I could convince myself that these things were absolutely true, as it would relieve me of a lot of responsibility, but I do not find the arguments to be compelling enough to override my skepticism. Its not about what I want, but what I find to be true according to my observations.

    In fact, the more I look into this philosophy, the less I am satisfied of its completeness and accuracy.

    As it is, I find them to be partially true, but not a complete description of this aspect of the human condition as they do not take everything into account.

    Again, it would be great if it were true, but I do not find evidence to support its claims.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-09-10 at 11:12 AM.

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