View Poll Results: Are Rights Natural?

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  • Yes.

    27 40.30%
  • No.

    32 47.76%
  • Other.

    6 8.96%
  • Rootabega.

    16 23.88%
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Thread: Are Rights Natural?

  1. #271
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I think that you still don't quite understand. Perhaps like your compatriots you are more given to make snide comments than try to understand a premise.

    It comes down to this. Do you think murder is unequivocally wrong? Not self-defense or things of that nature. Is one human in cold blood murdering another human always wrong? Regardless of race, regardless of location, regardless of social status. I'm pissy and grumpy, I'm walking down the street, I see some guy...maybe he reminds me of a rude server at Starbucks, I pull out a gun, shoot him in the back of the head. Is that act always wrong?

    The answer to that question will tell you what side of this debate you are on. If you believe that it is always wrong to outright murder people in cold blood, the question becomes why? If social and legal "right" is all we have, those can be changed. You can have a society say were murder is encouraged. But if you think that murder is always wrong, then there has to exist something outside of legal and social "right", something that is inherent to all humans and makes cold blooded murder against humans always wrong. That would be natural rights.

    If the answer to the question is no, then you'll never accept the concept of natural rights. If you think it personally ok under some circumstance for me to have shot that guy in the back of the head for no reason; you won't accept natural rights. It doesn't mean that maybe you can't understand the arguments for them (unlike others who would rather blatantly engage in nothing but insult instead of debate), but you're not going to accept it as valid. Morality is in essence completely subjective.

    I'm of course in the natural rights club. I am never justified to murder someone who has done nothing to me in the least. I do not have the right to take his life.
    I personally believe murder is wrong under all circumstances. I feel life is precious because I love humanity and that love encourages me to promote my fellow human. Before I became religious, the source of that love was the observation that if I love humanity, it will return the favor, it was entirely a pragmatic thing. And I would feel pissed off if that love was not returned. To me it was almost an economic exchange, I pay love and therefore should receive love in return, so that I might benefit. (Wow, you are causing me to bring up from old memories of decisions I made when I was 11 and 12.) I feel differently now that I am religious, but its still not based on any concept of rights, only love, except now I don't care if it isn't returned.

    I guess I am pragmatic to my very soul now that I think about it. But again when I decided to find the source of morality when I was a young person, I found that it did not exist except for what I built. So I built one because I decided that if I ever wanted to be happy, I had to find a way to be around other people and get along with them because I, like any human, am a social creature and have certain emotional needs. Pragmaticism is the tool I used I guess because it was the only tool there was when I was a hardcore atheist.

    My snide comment was meant to get back at Ethereal for his snide comment, it was wrong and I apologize.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-04-10 at 01:14 PM.

  2. #272
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I personally believe murder is wrong under all circumstances. I feel life is precious because I love humanity and that love encourages me to promote my fellow human. Before I became religious, the source of that love was the observation that if I love humanity, it will return the favor, it was entirely a pragmatic thing. And I would feel pissed off if that love was not returned. To me it was almost an economic exchange, I pay love and therefore should receive love in return, so that I might benefit. (Wow, you are causing me to bring up from old memories of decisions I made when I was 11 and 12.) I feel differently now that I am religious, but its still not based on any concept of rights, only love.

    I guess I am pragmatic to my very soul now that I think about it. But again when I decided to find the source of morality when I was a young person, I found that it did not exist except for what I built. So I built one because I decided that if I ever wanted to be happy, I had to find a way to be around other people and get along with them because I, like any human, am a social creature and have certain emotional needs. Pragmaticism is the tool I used I guess because it was the only tool there was when I was a hardcore atheist.

    My snide comment was meant to get back at Ethereal for his snide comment, it was wrong and I apologize.
    To be honest, I really think you should go read a bit on natural rights and the philosophy behind it. I don't think you're far away from at least understanding it a lot better, if not acknowledging it. The philosophers whom have written on the subject can do a much better job than I or any other random person on the internet is likely to do to convey the complex nature of this philosophical discussion. But unlike others, you have at least engaged openly enough to hear the arguments being made instead of just ignoring and rejecting them completely from the start as others have done. So for that I thank you.
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  3. #273
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Wrong again. In fact, I had summarized some of my arguments in my previous post to you and have expanded on concepts in posts to mega. But keep pretending if you want. You've already shown yourself so intellectually dishonest that you can't properly and productively engage in the debate; so your lies no longer really even matter.
    *yawn* Okay, whatever you say. Funny, I never saw anything even remotely close to an answer to the questions I asked, just your standard drivel and wishful thinking nonsense.

    I guess that's the best you can do. Can't expect better.
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  4. #274
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    *yawn* Okay, whatever you say. Funny, I never saw anything even remotely close to an answer to the questions I asked, just your standard drivel and wishful thinking nonsense.

    I guess that's the best you can do. Can't expect better.
    You're lies aside, I've had a reasonable discussion with another in this thread. Which shows that what you're saying is a lie. But it's how you debate this topic is all, I've come to realize that now. You're behavior towards libertarians is to call them names, ignore all the arguments, and keep pretending you've done something otherwise. It's fine, I just know the status of your debate skills and integrity now is all.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #275
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You're lies aside, I've had a reasonable discussion with another in this thread. Which shows that what you're saying is a lie. But it's how you debate this topic is all, I've come to realize that now. You're behavior towards libertarians is to call them names, ignore all the arguments, and keep pretending you've done something otherwise. It's fine, I just know the status of your debate skills and integrity now is all.
    Nope, just to point out where you're wrong and to watch you wallow in your wrongness. But hey, if you don't like it, stop responding to me, I don't mind. I'll just keep on pointing out where you're wrong, nothing says you have to pay attention.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  6. #276
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I think that you still don't quite understand. Perhaps like your compatriots you are more given to make snide comments than try to understand a premise.

    It comes down to this. Do you think murder is unequivocally wrong? Not self-defense or things of that nature. Is one human in cold blood murdering another human always wrong? Regardless of race, regardless of location, regardless of social status. I'm pissy and grumpy, I'm walking down the street, I see some guy...maybe he reminds me of a rude server at Starbucks, I pull out a gun, shoot him in the back of the head. Is that act always wrong?

    The answer to that question will tell you what side of this debate you are on. If you believe that it is always wrong to outright murder people in cold blood, the question becomes why? If social and legal "right" is all we have, those can be changed. You can have a society say were murder is encouraged. But if you think that murder is always wrong, then there has to exist something outside of legal and social "right", something that is inherent to all humans and makes cold blooded murder against humans always wrong. That would be natural rights.

    If the answer to the question is no, then you'll never accept the concept of natural rights. If you think it personally ok under some circumstance for me to have shot that guy in the back of the head for no reason; you won't accept natural rights. It doesn't mean that maybe you can't understand the arguments for them (unlike others who would rather blatantly engage in nothing but insult instead of debate), but you're not going to accept it as valid. Morality is in essence completely subjective.

    I'm of course in the natural rights club. I am never justified to murder someone who has done nothing to me in the least. I do not have the right to take his life.
    Here's the fallacy of your example, Ikari, and why rights are NOT natural. Even if I agree that it is always bad to murder someone in cold blood, unless everyone that ever lived feels the same way, the right is not natural. It is a construct instilled in each of us, either through social learning or through societal culture. Further, even IF every person who ever lived felt that way, then it would be an instinct, not a right.

    And I STILL haven't seen a viable definition of "rights". Everything the pro-natural rights crowd are discussing are desires or instincts.
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  7. #277
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Yes, but then you turn to aggregated effects and away from the natural environment to make some of those arguments. Which is were the concept of legal and social rights come into play. The pondering of natural rights extends from treatment of the natural environment free from government/societal pressures and observing the base of human nature. Aggregated over the whole you may find "broken" people who through lack of empathy or a variety of other reasons may think it's ok to just shoot someone. But that doesn't mean there aren't base rights. It just shows that on an aggregated level you'll realize situations which may not be present in the natural state or which may not manifest themselves less in the aggregated state. But the base of natural rights comes from consideration of people free from government force and thus leads to natural rights which is a restriction on the natural evolution of government against the rights of the people.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  8. #278
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Nope, just to point out where you're wrong and to watch you wallow in your wrongness. But hey, if you don't like it, stop responding to me, I don't mind. I'll just keep on pointing out where you're wrong, nothing says you have to pay attention.
    I mean, if you had actually pointed out where I was wrong, I suppose that would have been one thing. But you didn't. You merely carte blanche ignored any argument or reference to philosopher and deemed me wrong without any consideration. As I said, it is now clear you skills of debate and integrity.
    Last edited by Ikari; 03-04-10 at 05:41 PM.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #279
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    I have been wondering.

    How can anyone know what "natural rights" would be, given that no human ever recorded has lived in a environment that is not influenced by other forces...thus eliminating any baseline for the "natural" part.

    If that were the case, would it then follow that "rights" which were developed through the interaction of multiple humans with each other were the "natural rights"?

    Or could it be that "natural" for humans is to be interacting with other humans?

    I don't see how you can really determine which method of deciding what "rights" are "natural" is correct.

    So, really, all "rights" thought up by humans could be "natural", or perhaps no "rights" are "natural".

    Personally, however, I think the former is more reasonable.

    My reasons are as follows:
    • Only a small percentage of humans choose to live by themselves. Further, these are in most cases humans who had previously lived in a state of interaction with other humans, but for one reason or another chose to leave and live without said interaction. Lastly, those who choose to live a solitary existence are, from one perspective, "interacting" with other humans - if only through the act of avoiding interaction.
    • Thus, it seems "natural" that the majority of humans would live in a state of interaction with other humans. Exchanging ideas, thoughts, opinions...
    • It would then seem to follow that humans, in their natural state, would generate "rights" that they would (or, depending, would not) then hold others too.
    • So...Does that mean that any rights generated by human thought are "natural rights"?


    Heh.

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  10. #280
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Other: If it's human rights than it's natural.
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