View Poll Results: Are Rights Natural?

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  • Yes.

    27 40.30%
  • No.

    32 47.76%
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    6 8.96%
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    16 23.88%
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Thread: Are Rights Natural?

  1. #261
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Someone please define "rights" in the context that we are discussing. What I see is a lot of talk about instincts and desires... at least how I see it.
    Right - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

    5 : straight <a right line>
    See also [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_angle]Right angle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]



    This thread is about Right triangles and how you interact with them everyday.

    Please note that to illustrate a point, this post is being Obtuse:

    Last edited by Jerry; 03-04-10 at 10:35 AM.

  2. #262
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Someone please define "rights" in the context that we are discussing. What I see is a lot of talk about instincts and desires... at least how I see it.
    Yep...and inane fantasies about what life would be like in some ideal world. But NOTHING pertaining to 'rights' as a reachable and valid version of reality.

  3. #263
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    All humans desire to live in accordance with their will. That's human nature.
    Yes, you keep saying that, now let's see you DEMONSTRATE it. You know, back it up with evidence?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  4. #264
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So yes, just outright rejection. Thanks for showing you're not intellectually honest enough to actually engage.
    I cannot reject what has not been presented and your refusal to demonstrate that you have presented it in the past, or to present it now, only proves that you've never done so.

    What you're really saying is "holy crap, he's asking me to back up my nonsense and I can't do it so I'll wave my arms wildly and pretend I did it and make excuses why nobody has ever seen me do it!"
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  5. #265
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Yes, you keep saying that, now let's see you DEMONSTRATE it. You know, back it up with evidence?
    They do things like make countries with various rules, local organizations with company policies, private homes have individual house rules...some people like to earn a living by taking from others, and some of those others disagree, hence war...

  6. #266
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Then maybe rights are natural.
    Only if it can be backed up that way, but so far, nobody has been able to (or even attempted for that matter) to demonstrate it. If they want to argue that rights come from nature (as Jerry seems to) then they need to draw a causal link from the natural state to a demonstrable set of rights based on that state that are defensible for all animals that fall within that natural state. So far... no go.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  7. #267
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    They do things like make countries with various rules, local organizations with company policies, private homes have individual house rules...some people like to earn a living by taking from others, and some of those others disagree, hence war...
    Under some situations, not under others. How does any of this demonstrate that a "right" comes from "nature"?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Under some situations, not under others. How does any of this demonstrate that a "right" comes from "nature"?
    It doesn't, nor was it meant to.

    You disagreed with "all humans desire to live in accordance with their will"...you weren't even talking about rights in any context.

    People generally want what they want...how this relates to rights, I have no idea, it's Etherial's argument so I'll let him make the connection.

  9. #269
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    You guy's replies on this forum are provide me with the information I need. My time is precious to me and chasing fairy tales is not a good use of it.

    Ok. So I tried looking at it from Ikari's perspective and I came to this conclusion:

    One one side, you have the philosophy of the mind, which is libertarianism. On the other, you have the philosophy of the body, which is communism.

    Here's what I mean.

    Mind:
    The entire concern is about freedoms. Life, Liberty, Property, The Pursuit of happiness. It all boils down to saying a person has a right to try to acquire these things. It says a man is rightful in pursuing or attempting to secure these concepts. If a man loses any of these things, he is free to pursue them again (except life of course, you only get one shot at that). It ignores the world around it, which is its flaw. If a man has no life or means of life, the other pursuits lose meaning.

    Body:
    The entire concern is around things like food, shelter, works. The practicals of life. However, in order to be fully implemented, a man would have to give up his libertarian freedoms to become a part of the system that provides those practical necessities. Its flaw is that it goes against human nature. Humans are pretty much going to try to do their own thing.

    So, yeah it truly looks like the mirror image of communism and with pretty much anything else in life, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, the question becomes, how can we achieve the optimal state for the needs of both the mind and the body. This pretty much explains while successful societies are the ones who can find this middle ground, such as the US, Europe, China is moving in that direction, Singapore, etc. They all have elements of both philosophies, as dictated by necessity.

    Ultimately though, this pretty much leads me back to my original point, but maybe a bit modified with this new information. Rights have to be socially constructed since they have to mediate and exist in a gray area between these two extremes.

    So yeah, socialism or any ism can be good, given the right context.

    Thanks for the debate guys.

    Looks like I got what I came here for, new information.

    I hope Libertarians never become fully in charge, because without the concerns about the practical matters of living, I foresee a lot of death and misery. Of course they will always be able to deflect blame because if they only had more faith and the libertarianism was more pure it would be better! Which is the same claim communists make. Hopefully it will never get beyond arguments on forums and to the point where we have a libertarian version of stalin. And yes I completely mean this. It may make me a bad person in your eyes, but I am ok with that.
    I think that you still don't quite understand. Perhaps like your compatriots you are more given to make snide comments than try to understand a premise.

    It comes down to this. Do you think murder is unequivocally wrong? Not self-defense or things of that nature. Is one human in cold blood murdering another human always wrong? Regardless of race, regardless of location, regardless of social status. I'm pissy and grumpy, I'm walking down the street, I see some guy...maybe he reminds me of a rude server at Starbucks, I pull out a gun, shoot him in the back of the head. Is that act always wrong?

    The answer to that question will tell you what side of this debate you are on. If you believe that it is always wrong to outright murder people in cold blood, the question becomes why? If social and legal "right" is all we have, those can be changed. You can have a society say were murder is encouraged. But if you think that murder is always wrong, then there has to exist something outside of legal and social "right", something that is inherent to all humans and makes cold blooded murder against humans always wrong. That would be natural rights.

    If the answer to the question is no, then you'll never accept the concept of natural rights. If you think it personally ok under some circumstance for me to have shot that guy in the back of the head for no reason; you won't accept natural rights. It doesn't mean that maybe you can't understand the arguments for them (unlike others who would rather blatantly engage in nothing but insult instead of debate), but you're not going to accept it as valid. Morality is in essence completely subjective.

    I'm of course in the natural rights club. I am never justified to murder someone who has done nothing to me in the least. I do not have the right to take his life.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #270
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I cannot reject what has not been presented and your refusal to demonstrate that you have presented it in the past, or to present it now, only proves that you've never done so.

    What you're really saying is "holy crap, he's asking me to back up my nonsense and I can't do it so I'll wave my arms wildly and pretend I did it and make excuses why nobody has ever seen me do it!"
    Wrong again. In fact, I had summarized some of my arguments in my previous post to you and have expanded on concepts in posts to mega. But keep pretending if you want. You've already shown yourself so intellectually dishonest that you can't properly and productively engage in the debate; so your lies no longer really even matter.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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