View Poll Results: Are Rights Natural?

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    27 40.30%
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    32 47.76%
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Thread: Are Rights Natural?

  1. #241
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    What is the counter argument to "natural rights"?
    I think the other side of the coin is to argue from pure practical application of "rights". But outside of natural rights, what we would call "legal rights" or "social contract" are not truly rights as they are malleable and dependent upon the current incarnation of government or society. I think these are more rightfully deemed "privilege". Thus I believe that if you deny natural rights, you are in fact denying the existence of rights themselves. This, IMO, is incredibly dangerous as the concept of natural rights emerged and was promoted in varying political philosophies to exist as a natural limit on government power over the People. I believe this to be the true power of acknowledging natural rights.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #242
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I think the other side of the coin is to argue from pure practical application of "rights". But outside of natural rights, what we would call "legal rights" or "social contract" are not truly rights as they are malleable and dependent upon the current incarnation of government or society. I think these are more rightfully deemed "privilege". Thus I believe that if you deny natural rights, you are in fact denying the existence of rights themselves. This, IMO, is incredibly dangerous as the concept of natural rights emerged and was promoted in varying political philosophies to exist as a natural limit on government power over the People. I believe this to be the true power of acknowledging natural rights.
    Basically on one side, you have some rights that are eternal and natural, but the violation of them means nothing because there is no inherent action behind them. Ultimately making it a logical construct that has no inherent value because it accomplishes nothing.

    On the other side, you have rights that are formed by social consensus and could be anything, really, as long as society is supported by it.

    Thats how I see it at least.

    A person's liberty means nothing if they have no food or water in which to support themselves or they are dead, except that it can maybe make them feel good.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-03-10 at 06:52 PM.

  3. #243
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Basically on one side, you have some rights that are eternal and natural, but the violation of them means nothing. Ultimately making it a logical construct that has no inherent value because it accomplishes nothing.

    On the other side, you have rights that are formed by social consensus and could be anything, really, as long as society is supported by it.

    Both seem to have their advantages and disadvantages.
    Not quite. The violation of the natural rights does not mean nothing. It's a violation of rights and gives the people legitimacy to revolt or change in the government. I think there is plenty of value to understanding and acknowledging the existence of natural rights. While the exercise of the rights can be infringed upon by outside force, because natural rights are possessed by all it makes that force unjust towards the people and lends legitimacy to action against the government. This is because the government cannot define these rights to not exist. The exist in all humans and the government cannot take them. This is one of the main powers of natural rights.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Not quite. The violation of the natural rights does not mean nothing. It's a violation of rights and gives the people legitimacy to revolt or change in the government. I think there is plenty of value to understanding and acknowledging the existence of natural rights. While the exercise of the rights can be infringed upon by outside force, because natural rights are possessed by all it makes that force unjust towards the people and lends legitimacy to action against the government. This is because the government cannot define these rights to not exist. The exist in all humans and the government cannot take them. This is one of the main powers of natural rights.
    There is no need for legitimacy. If a person feels they have sufficient moral reason to fight for whatever they think they rights are and they will supply their own legitimacy since it is an internal and societal function. Its all they need since that is what they will act on.

    All you are doing is pointing out one possible execution of this larger and more inclusive principal.

    Its like the Hindu that accepts a Christian's claim at full value and still being able to be fully Hindu. Your view is simply a subset of mine and that's all it can ever be.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-03-10 at 06:57 PM.

  5. #245
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    There is no need for legitimacy. If a person feels they have sufficient moral reason to fight for whatever they think they rights are and they will supply their own legitimacy since it is an internal and societal function. Its all they need since that is what they will act on.
    Perhaps. But then it becomes a lot more floppy. I can think I have sufficient moral reason to revolt; but can document no such violation of my rights on such level as to warrant it. Under your assumptions, I still have legitimacy to my claim of revolt. Under my assumptions, I do not have the legitimacy since I cannot show violation of my natural rights.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Perhaps. But then it becomes a lot more floppy. I can think I have sufficient moral reason to revolt; but can document no such violation of my rights on such level as to warrant it. Under your assumptions, I still have legitimacy to my claim of revolt. Under my assumptions, I do not have the legitimacy since I cannot show violation of my natural rights.
    That assessment seems completely accurate.

    Is floppy a common libertarian term? Because it keeps making me think of fat people, and 1.4MB disks.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-03-10 at 07:03 PM.

  7. #247
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    No, I use floppy a lot to designate dynamics which are extremely malleable and subject to rapid change/interpretation.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, I use floppy a lot to designate dynamics which are extremely malleable and subject to rapid change/interpretation.
    Is that a bad thing? I am curious of your personal assessment, not necessarily the libertarian mainstream thought of the matter.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-03-10 at 07:05 PM.

  9. #249
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    The term isn't necessarily negative. I just use it to describe the stability of the system. Some things you may want to be floppy, other things maybe not so much. When it comes to natural rights specifically, I think you want to stay away from floppy.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The term isn't necessarily negative. I just use it to describe the stability of the system. Some things you may want to be floppy, other things maybe not so much. When it comes to natural rights specifically, I think you want to stay away from floppy.
    Do you think these natural rights, as they are divined by insights into human nature, are subject to change if, for instance, human nature changes because of something like genetic engineering that changes our core mental structure or if we install networked communications into our brains and start merging thoughts with one another?

    I know its hypothetical, but I am probing the philosophy to see its rigidity.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-03-10 at 07:24 PM.

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