View Poll Results: Are Rights Natural?

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  • Yes.

    27 40.30%
  • No.

    32 47.76%
  • Other.

    6 8.96%
  • Rootabega.

    16 23.88%
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Thread: Are Rights Natural?

  1. #231
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    Cephus's Avatar
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Why? You rejected it the first time through, why should I now expect you to accept arguments of Locke or Kant now? Go back if you want the information, but you've not shown a penchant for honest engagement in the discussion of natural rights. I've argued the basis of what natural rights can be, the difference between natural rights, legal rights, and social contract. I've put forth argument that rights are a check upon government power, and the necessities of rights. People seem to be caught up in the ideas of abstract. That because rights can be discovered through reason and because they are an abstract ideal that somehow they are worthless and can't exist in the least. But humans can understand and use the abstract and the notion of rights is incredibly useful, powerful, and necessary. But you're not interested, you get caught up on "abstract". And from that point on you reject all argument. You can go back and find where I made these arguments, but I doubt your readiness to try to engage on an intellectually honest level.
    Just what I thought, you didn't really answer any of those questions. No surprise there.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  2. #232
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    What does Locke say?
    He basically says that people are by nature born free, and that certain moral truths can be derived from the "state of nature" into which humans are born, i.e., all people desire and endeavor to live in accordance with their will. This is the universal concept upon which "natural rights" are based.

  3. #233
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    We've provided both. You're just too busy beating up a strawman to notice.
    Then you should have no problem posting a direct link to where you've provided any of it.

    A right is just a philosophical construct based upon human nature. It's not a magic forcefield that protects people from harm, but if you want to keep pretending that's what we think it is, I'm not going to stop you from sounding like a fool.
    Demonstrate that it is based on human nature then. Let's see you do the sociological and anthropological homework required to make such a claim.

    How long should we wait?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  4. #234
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I think some kinds of societies require rights in order for it to exist.
    I would say all societies require some sort of rights and restrictions on behavior in order to exist at all, unless you're talking about pure anarchism and that's not a viable, long-term social structure to begin with. Every society out there has their own social rules, things you can do and things you cannot. The idea that there is a single set of rules that applies to everyone, everywhere, is ridiculous on the face of it.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  5. #235
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Demonstrate that it is based on human nature then.
    All humans desire to live in accordance with their will. That's human nature.

  6. #236
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Just what I thought, you didn't really answer any of those questions. No surprise there.
    So yes, just outright rejection. Thanks for showing you're not intellectually honest enough to actually engage.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  7. #237
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    He basically says that people are by nature born free, and that certain moral truths can be derived from the "state of nature" into which humans are born, i.e., all people desire and endeavor to live in accordance with their will. This is the universal concept upon which "natural rights" are based.
    Thanks. I can see that point of view. Does he say that restrictions to those "natural rights" come from others imposing their will upon us and restricting our natural will?

    What is the counter argument to "natural rights"?

  8. #238
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Thanks. I can see that point of view. Does he say that restrictions to those "natural rights" come from others imposing their will upon us and restricting our natural will?
    Thomas Jefferson articulates what he feels are the rightful limits to our natural will:

    Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual.

    Personally, I think Jefferson summed up almost everything we need to know about how to govern and act in the previous statement; it's basically a reincarnation of the golden rule.

    What is the counter argument to "natural rights"?
    Tyranny and socialism.

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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    LOL! Have you been blogging about us, Cephus?

    Once again, I’ve been a part of a debate about “rights” with those nutjobs, the libertarians. And once again, the inherent irrationality of their position has been pointed out to them and they’ve entirely failed to comprehend it. This is certainly not the first time I’ve posted about libertarians and their bizarre concept of “rights”, I think some of it bears repeating however.
    Oh yes, we're unable to comprehend your argument, oh brilliant one. That must be it...

    You've invested too much in your strawman to go back now. You've reached the point of no return...

  10. #240
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    See, that's exactly the question I keep asking. What are these rights based on? Where do they come from? On what authority do they exist? How do they know they exist? How were they discovered? How do they figure out which ones are rights and which ones are wishful thinking? These are questions that never get answered and, when pressed, the questioner gets called names.

    Ultimately, "natural rights" looks more like a religion than a well-reasoned, critically-examined credible position. Maybe that's what Ikari is afraid people are going to find out.
    Feelings...nothing more than feelings...

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