View Poll Results: Are Rights Natural?

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  • Yes.

    27 40.30%
  • No.

    32 47.76%
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    6 8.96%
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    16 23.88%
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Thread: Are Rights Natural?

  1. #211
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well you need to be slightly careful there cause the ends don't always justify the means.
    You are absolutely correct. It is a case by case basis thing.

    Like the post office or public libraries.

    I pretty much believe those concepts work for almost all situations, but sometimes they do not. For me the practicals of the matter are more important than the ideals of it and these ideals are great when they do promote what they are trying to. However, sometimes they oppose something that would promote more life and liberty (a healthy population pretty much covers both of those things). But no logical system can ever account for every possible thing, so sometimes we need to help it along with exceptions.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-03-10 at 07:15 AM.

  2. #212
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Here is how it goes:

    Natural - freedom, liberty, lawlessness, anarchy

    Civilization - Man's attempt to live together while maximizing and securing our rights.

    BTW, for anyone really interested in this subject. I would highly recommend Thomas Paine's, "Rights of Man."

    He breaks it down by saying when we were created we were free and equal. Only after that did we work to control, limit, or oppress others.

  3. #213
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Please do. You're obviously completely uninterested in fostering debate and claiming rights to be some magical entity. What rights are is a powerful tool of the people to constrain government. Just because something is an abstract idea doesn't mean it's worthless. Humans, unlike other animals, have the ability to understand and use the abstract. Which is why you can derive natural rights from pure reason.
    Maybe if people didnt throw around words like 'rights' like they knew something about it, the word might have meaning. If you want to get into a moralistic view on how things 'should' be in a perfect world...fine...we can do that. Of course...there are a lot of people that will challenge you on the foundation of even the CONCEPT of morals...but as an IDEA...as a GOAL...wonderful. Hell...we wouldnt even disagree...

    But we have a somewhat more concrete understanding of 'rights'...at least in this country. Our 'rights' are specifically listed. They are enforced. The word here actually has meaning and consequence when violations occur.

    To assign mythical 'human rights' globally is frankly, idiotic. Time...history...reality proves it.

    If you want to work for a fantastic ideal concept...great. But dont pretend that YOUR rights mean a damn thing to people who live on the other side of the globe.

  4. #214
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    Ikari's Avatar
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Maybe if people didnt throw around words like 'rights' like they knew something about it, the word might have meaning. If you want to get into a moralistic view on how things 'should' be in a perfect world...fine...we can do that. Of course...there are a lot of people that will challenge you on the foundation of even the CONCEPT of morals...but as an IDEA...as a GOAL...wonderful. Hell...we wouldnt even disagree...

    But we have a somewhat more concrete understanding of 'rights'...at least in this country. Our 'rights' are specifically listed. They are enforced. The word here actually has meaning and consequence when violations occur.

    To assign mythical 'human rights' globally is frankly, idiotic. Time...history...reality proves it.

    If you want to work for a fantastic ideal concept...great. But dont pretend that YOUR rights mean a damn thing to people who live on the other side of the globe.
    I thought you were done. My rights are important to me, people on the other side of the globe are not. They'll have to fight for recognition of their own rights if that's what they want. Again, doesn't mean they don't have rights. There is a base set of rights common to all humans.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #215
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    Cephus's Avatar
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's not running away. But the only way you can arrive to your insulting claims you make in childish ways is the abject rejection of any argument. In which case, there is no more debate. You won't entertain the idea of all humans being equal or having a base set of rights. And in the end, you've resorted to just childish insults, at which point we're done. If you can't respond in an intellectually honest manner, is there really a point to continuing on? I don't think so. Arguing with a child isn't very productive on the whole.
    I won't accept it because YOU HAVEN'T SUPPORTED IT IN ANY MEANINGFUL WAY! You just keep repeating it over and over like that somehow justifies your claims and it doesn't. I keep asking you how you justify this belief, how you know that these rights exist, how you know what these rights are and you entirely ignore the questions.

    If it's abusive to actually require you to back up your claims, then color me abusive.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  6. #216
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    You're such a snide individual. No one is impressed by you...
    I'm not here to be impressive, but to get to actual, defensible answers and demonstrable truths. Funny how most people don't have either.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  7. #217
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack
    Based on WHAT???
    See, that's exactly the question I keep asking. What are these rights based on? Where do they come from? On what authority do they exist? How do they know they exist? How were they discovered? How do they figure out which ones are rights and which ones are wishful thinking? These are questions that never get answered and, when pressed, the questioner gets called names.

    Ultimately, "natural rights" looks more like a religion than a well-reasoned, critically-examined credible position. Maybe that's what Ikari is afraid people are going to find out.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  8. #218
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    See, that's exactly the question I keep asking. What are these rights based on? Where do they come from? On what authority do they exist? How do they know they exist? How were they discovered? How do they figure out which ones are rights and which ones are wishful thinking? These are questions that never get answered and, when pressed, the questioner gets called names.

    Ultimately, "natural rights" looks more like a religion than a well-reasoned, critically-examined credible position. Maybe that's what Ikari is afraid people are going to find out.
    These rights are based on me attempting to physically harm the person that may try to take them away.

    They exist because I say they do, rights only exist in the mind and they can only continue to exist with the use of violence.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  9. #219
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I won't accept it because YOU HAVEN'T SUPPORTED IT IN ANY MEANINGFUL WAY! You just keep repeating it over and over like that somehow justifies your claims and it doesn't. I keep asking you how you justify this belief, how you know that these rights exist, how you know what these rights are and you entirely ignore the questions.

    If it's abusive to actually require you to back up your claims, then color me abusive.
    I have, you've rejected anything which is counter to your preconceived notions. I've shown how the belief is justified, I've even pointed out philosophers whom developed some of the theory; you can read them if you want. I didn't ignore anything, you've ignored the argument and blatantly reject it without any amount of entertainment of the argument. So I don't know what you want. If you were just asking for proof and were justified in the quandary, I wouldn't call it abusive. It's abusive when you just start in with insults and outright rejection of all argument. It's not debate, it's not mature, it's not intellectually honest. That's all there is to say about it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #220
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    tacomancer's Avatar
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    These rights are based on me attempting to physically harm the person that may try to take them away.

    They exist because I say they do, rights only exist in the mind and they can only continue to exist with the use of violence.
    Harry hits the nail on the head. Any right exists because you believe it. I'm glad one of the libertarians seem to get it.

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