View Poll Results: Are Rights Natural?

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  • Yes.

    27 40.30%
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    32 47.76%
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Thread: Are Rights Natural?

  1. #201
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    A society is nothing more than an abstraction, the same as a right. The only difference is that a right is based upon human nature, while the other is nebulous and variable.
    Society is nebulous and variable. Every society has its own culture. I see no conflict here. But yeah, its just an abstract idea therefore I can assign it any value that I wish because it only exists in my mind, that is human nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    You're placing the needs of an abstract social entity over the sovereignty of a real individual. That's socialist tyranny.
    Yes I am and I am proud of that fact. You may think it is immoral, but you have a vote and so do I and unless those laws regarding voting change, we are free to each think and act how we wish. If the laws do change, we are free to try and change them back since thats how human nature works. But it is an expression of force, not inherent right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Yes, rights have always harmed the ability of tyrants to violate the individual.

    I never said you couldn't have your own opinion. I'm just saying you should base it upon reality. The philosophy of natural rights was the product of hundreds of brilliant minds over hundreds of years. If you want to delude yourself into thinking you've encapsulated it with soundbites I'm not going to stop you; it is your right, after all...
    Your definition of tyrants seems interesting. I will have to ponder it for a while. Yep. We each are free to pursue what we wish because our society allows it because people generally agree that it is a good thing.

    There are some very real practical benefits to this philosophy. I am in debt to those good ideas.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-02-10 at 09:13 PM.

  2. #202
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Okay, that's reasonable. I would simply define it as something arising from nature, and nature is basically everything. You can isolate certain parts of nature, too, like human nature. Human nature would be anything inherent to all humans, just like something "natural" would be anything inherent to the universe.
    Ok i was just commentating on how that word is thrown around.

    To answer the original question i think there are if you like natural rights even animals have an idea of fairness etc and nearly all laws etc are built from these.They just arent concrete.
    The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

  3. #203
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Mostly it involves around the idea that taxes are theft and not legit unless its only used for certain purposes which are very narrowly defined by a the same people who tend to use the "taxes are theft" phrase.
    Well, if you're collecting taxes to fund unconstitutional government programs, how is it not "theft"?

    This goes back to socialized medicine.

    I have no issues with the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, I have no idea what the ninth is referring to but its probably judicial precedent of some sort, and the tenth should have been worded better since it seems to allow for wild differences in interpretation.
    That's why we have an Amendment process. If you want socialized medicine, then you need the States to agree to it. This ensures that the Federal government cannot simply thrust national programs onto the entire country. Do you really think it's a good idea to invest that much power into such a small group of people? Right now, less than a thousand politicians can exercise immediate influence over 360 million Americans. I find that disturbing...

  4. #204
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Well, if you're collecting taxes to fund unconstitutional government programs, how is it not "theft"?

    That's why we have an Amendment process. If you want socialized medicine, then you need the States to agree to it. This ensures that the Federal government cannot simply thrust national programs onto the entire country. Do you really think it's a good idea to invest that much power into such a small group of people? Right now, less than a thousand politicians can exercise immediate influence over 360 million Americans. I find that disturbing...
    Theft is a moral concept and its going to be thought of differently from person to person. You might consider it to be theft, I consider that sometimes the needs of society outweigh the needs of a person and therefore it is just because it would do vastly more good than harm overall. Also, I don't consider the constitution to be the moral standard for anything. It is a legal document, not a moral one.

    If the supreme court thinks we need an amendment, than we do. Anything we pass at this point is going to get challenged in court and will probably get all the way to the justices. That's their decision though, not mine.

    I don't really see the harm in investing that power into an agency though. The results from Europe and Canada look promising.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-02-10 at 09:19 PM.

  5. #205
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    If the supreme court thinks we need an amendment, than we do. Anything we pass at this point is going to get challenged in court and will probably get all the way to the justices. That's their decision though, not mine.
    Wait, what?

    It's the job of congress to determine if we need amendments. And also their job to write those amendments.
    The supreme court is tasked with determining the constutionality of laws and interpreting the constitution.
    I suppose if an amendment were unconstitutional...but wait, an amendment would be PART of the constution....and thus incapable of being unconstuitutional, except in that it contridicted previous (and unchanged) amendments?

    Mayhaps I need to read up on the respective jobs of the congress and the supreme court...
    Education.

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  6. #206
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Theft is a moral concept and its going to be thought of differently from person to person. You might consider it to be theft, I consider that sometimes the needs of society outweigh the needs of a person and therefore it is just because it would do vastly more good than harm overall.

    If the supreme court thinks we need an amendment, than we do. Anything we pass at this point is going to get challenged in court and will probably get all the way to the justices. That's their decision though, not mine.
    Oh boy...

    I got news for you. The Supreme Court does not Amend the Constitution. That would be the Congress and the States...

  7. #207
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    I was referring to the supreme court declaring it constitutional or unconstitutional, which would mean that congress and states would have to write an amendment and pass it if it really wanted that law.

    looks like I should have phrased it better.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-02-10 at 09:23 PM.

  8. #208
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    And sometimes the results are good, like socialized health care. The way I see it is that it can be used for both good and bad, like any other ideal. Thats why I am uninterested in logical purity and more interested in results.
    Well you need to be slightly careful there cause the ends don't always justify the means.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  9. #209
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    oh...my...heck...

    seriously?

    The CONCEPT of RIGHTS is an IDEA...nothing more. I have said that from the OUTSET. It is absolutely intangible.

    and NOW you say...gosh...its just an abstract idea...I dont know why people have such a hard time with it...

    I...I...

    I give up...
    Please do. You're obviously completely uninterested in fostering debate and claiming rights to be some magical entity. What rights are is a powerful tool of the people to constrain government. Just because something is an abstract idea doesn't mean it's worthless. Humans, unlike other animals, have the ability to understand and use the abstract. Which is why you can derive natural rights from pure reason.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #210
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well you need to be slightly careful there cause the ends don't always justify the means.[regarding socialized healthcare]
    What means would you be talking about?

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