View Poll Results: Are Rights Natural?

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    27 40.30%
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    32 47.76%
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Thread: Are Rights Natural?

  1. #191
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Dude, that is what scares me. Your statement is one step away from "We must give up these concepts of individual rights for the sake of Social Progress and the Common Good."

    This has been the rallying cry of many oppressive tyrants and movements. The end results are always ugly.
    And sometimes the results are good, like socialized health care. The way I see it is that it can be used for both good and bad, like any other ideal. Thats why I am uninterested in logical purity and more interested in results.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-02-10 at 08:50 PM.

  2. #192
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    And why is that? Because you say so?

    It's flippant comments like this that cheapen the debates around here...
    Because to use a term, you must define it.

    And you can't define anything without using another term which can be defined in multiple ways.

    The entire system called "logic" is a chain of such things.

    Assuming, of course, that I used the universally correct definition of "the", "entire", "system", "called", "logic", "is", "a", "chain", "of", "such", and "things".

    Which I couldn't have, except by accident, as no one knows what those definitions are.

    *crosses eyes*

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  3. #193
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Because to use a term, you must define it.

    And you can't define anything without using another term which can be defined in multiple ways.

    The entire system called "logic" is a chain of such things.

    Assuming, of course, that I used the universally correct definition of "the", "entire", "system", "called", "logic", "is", "a", "chain", "of", "such", and "things".

    Which I couldn't have, except by accident, as no one knows what those definitions are.

    *crosses eyes*

    If we could only network our brains and exchange thought instead of clumsy language

  4. #194
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    And sometimes the results are good, like socialized health care. The way I see it is that it can be used for both good and bad, like any other ideal. Thats why I am uninterested in logical purity and more interested in results.

    I don't consider socialized healthcare a good, and I speak out against it.

    If you were able to stifle the free speech of people like me, it would be far easier to get socialized healthcare passed.

    Do you really want to go there? Your logic seems to be pointing in that direction... the direction of "individual rights get in the way of my agenda."
    Last edited by Goshin; 03-02-10 at 08:54 PM.

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  5. #195
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    And why is that? Because you say so?

    It's flippant comments like this that cheapen the debates around here...
    No it isnt my point is what do you mean by "natural" ive seen it used under such a wide definitions.Its hard to know the specific meaning in which someone is using it.

    Im just asking you to go a little further.
    The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

  6. #196
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I don't consider socialized healthcare a good, and I speak out against it.

    If you were able to stifle the free speech of people like me, it would be far easier to get socialized healthcare passed.

    Do you really want to go there?
    Whether or not we disagree is the subject of another thread and its probably best we stay on subject. And I have no interest in stifling the speech of anyone, my interest is letting our votes do the work for us, which is a legitimate way of settling our disagreements in this society. (Of course that seems to be working less and less well in practice, again, thats another thread).

  7. #197
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Whether or not we disagree is the subject of another thread and its probably best we stay on subject. And I have no interest in stifling the speech of anyone, my interest is letting our votes do the work for us, which is a legitimate way of settling our disagreements in this society.

    So what rights do we have that you think are "limiting our progress" and need to be done away with? You certainly implied that there were such.


    Incidentally, if you're mainly intrested in "results" rather than "logical purity" (whatever that means), and think that concepts of rights shouldn't get in the way of progress... well there's that pesky Democracy thing, do away with that and you can get your "results" a lot faster. (/irony)
    Last edited by Goshin; 03-02-10 at 09:00 PM.

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  8. #198
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I was referring to the practical effects of the philosophy. The interpretation of it that I most often see imposes limitations on society that I think are unnecessary and prevent us from progressing towards what I think would be a more optimal social organization that would help prevent the loss of life, hunger, and other evils. In my view, people are often more important than concepts.
    A society is nothing more than an abstraction, the same as a right. The only difference is that a right is based upon human nature, while the other is nebulous and variable.

    You're placing the needs of an abstract social entity over the sovereignty of a real individual. That's socialist tyranny.

    The ideas do have a certain appeal, but in some cases, they appear to do more harm than good. I am less concerned with the logic of it and more concern with what happens in the real world as a result of it.
    Yes, rights have always harmed the ability of tyrants to violate the individual.

    I don't care if you think it is a sound bite or not. I do. There is nothing that prevents me from thinking otherwise. Really that's all that's necessary since it is only an idea or a group of ideas.
    I never said you couldn't have your own opinion. I'm just saying you should base it on reality. The philosophy of natural rights was the product of hundreds of brilliant minds over hundreds of years. If you want to delude yourself into thinking you've encapsulated it with soundbites I'm not going to stop you; it is your right, after all...
    Last edited by Ethereal; 03-02-10 at 09:05 PM.

  9. #199
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    So what rights do we have that you think are "limiting our progress" and need to be done away with? You certainly implied that there were such.
    Mostly it involves around the idea that taxes are theft and not legit unless its only used for certain purposes which are very narrowly defined by a the same people who tend to use the "taxes are theft" phrase.

    This goes back to socialized medicine.

    I have no issues with the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, I have no idea what the ninth is referring to but its probably judicial precedent of some sort, and the tenth should have been worded better since it seems to allow for wild differences in interpretation.

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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikhail View Post
    No it isnt my point is what do you mean by "natural" ive seen it used under such a wide definitions.Its hard to know the specific meaning in which someone is using it.

    Im just asking you to go a little further.
    Okay, that's reasonable. I would simply define it as something arising from nature, and nature is basically everything. You can isolate certain parts of nature, too, like human nature. Human nature would be anything inherent to all humans, just like something "natural" would be anything inherent to the universe.

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