View Poll Results: Are Rights Natural?

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  • Yes.

    27 40.30%
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    32 47.76%
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    6 8.96%
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Thread: Are Rights Natural?

  1. #171
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post


    Someone should tell this guy he has the right to not be hungry
    I don't know what you think this proves. A "right" is just a philosophical construct that is based upon human nature. It cannot protect you from anything, which is why they are said to be "violated" when someone's individual liberty is infringed upon.

    People come up with some strange arguments when they're talking about "natural rights".

  2. #172
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I don't know what you think this proves. A "right" is just a philosophical construct that is based upon human nature. It cannot protect you from anything, which is why they are said to be "violated" when someone's individual liberty is infringed upon.

    People come up with some strange arguments when they're talking about "natural rights".
    Well you'll see a lot of people use weird arguments to try to get out of debates on rights. I don't know when abstract ideas became bad, but I think there is a lot of validity to abstract ideals and philosophy.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    so there were no civilizations prior to 1800's?
    Except for the one's without slaves?
    There were certainly civilizations, but I wouldn't call many of them "civilized".

    Obviously, some will have civilized aspects, but those are overshadowed by the barbarity.

    you look at history from your the pinnacle you enjoy without regard to the ever increasing strides and acoomplishments present throughout.

    Likely, 1000 years from now people will look back at us with similiar disgust for things we can only imagine.

    JM roberts has an excellant world history book that will enlighten you to such things.
    Whoa. I'm not trying to throw history away or anything. I'm probably one of the most "old-fashioned" thinkers on the forum. I wouldn't throw away the Constitution because it was signed by some slave-owners, but that does not mean I overlook the unjust and barbaric nature of slavery. They were flawed, like all humans.

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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well you'll see a lot of people use weird arguments to try to get out of debates on rights. I don't know when abstract ideas became bad, but I think there is a lot of validity to abstract ideals and philosophy.
    I would recommend they actually sit down and read the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers, instead of just trying to encapsulate the Founders' entire political philosophy in two sentences.

    There! I've refuted all of them! The Founders are but ants before my intellectual prowess! I am an internet God, slaying arcane philosophies at my leisure!!!



    In your dreams internet warrior...

  5. #175
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Allow me to put forward an odd proposition, for those who do not believe in natural rights:

    You might want to consider "faking it"... that is, pretending to believe in natural rights, even if you don't.

    Do you like having rights? I expect you do.

    Are your rights more secure if the vast majority of the population believes them to be abstract constructs of society, or privileges granted by government... or natural and inherent?

    If nobody thought the Constitution was important, it wouldn't be. But, in point of fact lots of people believe it is... indeed it is held as all but sacrosanct by many, and so it still has power.

    Rights are sorta like that. If most people believe you absodamnlutely have an inborn, inherent, natural right to free speech, then the government will have to tread lightly in infringing on same.

    If most people view the right to free speech as an arbitrary social construct granted by government, I think they would be less inclined to see infringements of speech with the same level of outrage and fury.

    Give it a moment's thought. Words and concepts have power. Critical thinking is all very well, but if you kick ALL the underpinnings out of a society, what will hold it up?

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  6. #176
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I would recommend they actually sit down and read the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers, instead of just trying to encapsulate the Founders' entire political philosophy in two sentences.

    There! I've refuted all of them! The Founders are but ants before my intellectual prowess! I am an internet God, slaying arcane philosophies at my leisure!!!



    In your dreams internet warrior...
    The problem is that we aren't arguing with the founders. They are dead, so all we have is you guys.

  7. #177
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Allow me to put forward an odd proposition, for those who do not believe in natural rights:

    You might want to consider "faking it"... that is, pretending to believe in natural rights, even if you don't.

    Do you like having rights? I expect you do.

    Are your rights more secure if the vast majority of the population believes them to be abstract constructs of society, or privileges granted by government... or natural and inherent?

    If nobody thought the Constitution was important, it wouldn't be. But, in point of fact lots of people believe it is... indeed it is held as all but sacrosanct by many, and so it still has power.

    Rights are sorta like that. If most people believe you absodamnlutely have an inborn, inherent, natural right to free speech, then the government will have to tread lightly in infringing on same.

    If most people view the right to free speech as an arbitrary social construct granted by government, I think they would be less inclined to see infringements of speech with the same level of outrage and fury.

    Give it a moment's thought. Words and concepts have power. Critical thinking is all very well, but if you kick ALL the underpinnings out of a society, what will hold it up?
    Interesting approach. I don't agree, but I applaud the thinking behind it. You are correct in that there are many practical benefits to the Natural Law Philosophy, however I think the approach is too limited in many aspects.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-02-10 at 08:07 PM.

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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I don't know what you think this proves. A "right" is just a philosophical construct that is based upon human nature. It cannot protect you from anything, which is why they are said to be "violated" when someone's individual liberty is infringed upon.

    People come up with some strange arguments when they're talking about "natural rights".
    Actually...thats preCISEly what I have been saying all along...rights are MERELY PHILOSOPHICAL. As such they are IDEAS...not REAL.

  9. #179
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Actually...thats preCISEly what I have been saying all along...rights are MERELY PHILOSOPHICAL. As such they are IDEAS...not REAL.
    Yes, I think we're aware of that. I'm not sure what your point is.

  10. #180
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well you'll see a lot of people use weird arguments to try to get out of debates on rights. I don't know when abstract ideas became bad, but I think there is a lot of validity to abstract ideals and philosophy.
    oh...my...heck...

    seriously?

    The CONCEPT of RIGHTS is an IDEA...nothing more. I have said that from the OUTSET. It is absolutely intangible.

    and NOW you say...gosh...its just an abstract idea...I dont know why people have such a hard time with it...

    I...I...

    I give up...

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