View Poll Results: Are Rights Natural?

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  • Yes.

    27 40.30%
  • No.

    32 47.76%
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    6 8.96%
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Thread: Are Rights Natural?

  1. #161
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So you've degraded to nothing but insults. Noted.


    and these people are having the HELL violated out of their rights....

  2. #162
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Done yet? Or are you still in "rights are magical" mode. Are there oppressed people in the world? Yes of course. Are there hungry people in the world? Yes, of course. Does that mean rights don't exist at all? No, it doesn't. It's an absurd notion and can only be put forth by someone who defines rights as magical devices which will satiate all our needs though some form of magic or alchemy.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #163
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So you've degraded to nothing but insults. Noted.


    It seems like all around the globe, people are not getting the memo that they have the right to liberty, freedom, food, clean water, shelter.

    As an IDEA...its a wonderful notion. In reality? Its a notion that the priveleged few share...and only they because others have fought, bled and died to provide it.

    You want to call that insulting...fine. Not meant to be an insult...maybe a reality check...but not an insult.

  4. #164
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    As I'm lazy, I didn't feel like reading the whole thread, so...

    I agree and disagree with the OP.

    Problem is, how do you define "natural rights"?

    If you were alone in a blank, empty space, you would die due to lack of air in short order.
    If air were added, you would die due to lack of water in a somewhat longer period.
    If water were added as well, you would die due to lack of food in a yet longer period.
    If air, water, and food were provided, you would eventually die due to your body wearing out. Or suicide, as you had gone insane. If you could find a way to suicide in a blank, empty space...

    Basically, I look at human requirements for living a reasonably comfortable life as:
    1. Air.
    2. Water.
    3. Food.
    4. Companions.
    5. And, depending on the length of time you want to live, protection from the various natural elements which can kill/damage you, such as:
      • Weather.
      • Disease.
      • Animals who want to kill/damage you.
      • Falling objects (trees, rocks, etc.)
      • Humans who want to kill/damage you.

    Now, many of those issues can be avoided by an alert, reasonably intelligent human:
    • Weather can be protected against (buildings).
    • Disease can be cured/prevented (although not by any means all).
    • Animals who want to kill/damage you can be protected against or killed if the protection fails.
    • Falling objects can be dodged or protected against.
    • Humans who want to kill/damage you can be protected against or killed if the protection fails.

    However, most of those solutions involve work on the part of the human.

    ----------------------------------------
    I suppose the ability to produce work is one of the natural rights we possess.
    IF you define the right to life as a natural right.

    ----------------------------------------

    Creating a society of multiple humans allows that work to be saved for future generations (although an individual could do the same, on a smaller scale).

    To an extent, a society (if set up to allow such), allows an individuals unneeded past or present work (wealth) to be traded for other past or present work (through trade or money, or some exchange of wealth).

    But all of it hinges on whether you consider the right to live a "natural right". If you don't, then no other rights matter, really...because to do anything, you must be alive.

    Blather over.
    Last edited by The Mark; 03-02-10 at 06:58 PM.
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    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  5. #165
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Done yet? Or are you still in "rights are magical" mode. Are there oppressed people in the world? Yes of course. Are there hungry people in the world? Yes, of course. Does that mean rights don't exist at all? No, it doesn't. It's an absurd notion and can only be put forth by someone who defines rights as magical devices which will satiate all our needs though some form of magic or alchemy.
    The only absurd notion is your dogged insistence that 'humans' have 'rights' when the PROOF is pretty GLARINGLY OBVIOUS that outside of our happy little realm...thats so very OBVIOUSLY not the case. Or again...someone TOTALLY missed the meeting...didnt get the memo...whatever...

  6. #166
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    It seems like all around the globe, people are not getting the memo that they have the right to liberty, freedom, food, clean water, shelter.

    As an IDEA...its a wonderful notion. In reality? Its a notion that the priveleged few share...and only they because others have fought, bled and died to provide it.

    You want to call that insulting...fine. Not meant to be an insult...maybe a reality check...but not an insult.
    Well you haven't actually proven anything, but I guess whatever floats your boat.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  7. #167
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well you haven't actually proven anything, but I guess whatever floats your boat.
    PROOF? What do you offer as 'proof'???

    I much prefer when my boat floats...otherwise its not very useful...sort of like when the word 'rights' has no meaning.

  8. #168
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    The only absurd notion is your dogged insistence that 'humans' have 'rights' when the PROOF is pretty GLARINGLY OBVIOUS that outside of our happy little realm...thats so very OBVIOUSLY not the case. Or again...someone TOTALLY missed the meeting...didnt get the memo...whatever...
    No, the absurd notion is that you are saying that because the exercise of rights can be infringed upon, because people can suffer, that rights don't exist in the least. It's an absurd notion that doesn't recognize what a right is. Instead you dogmatically avoid all argument and post little pictures thinking you're proving a point; but you've done nothing but show that there is suffering. Welcome to reality I guess. But the existence of suffering does not negate the existence of rights.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #169
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, the absurd notion is that you are saying that because the exercise of rights can be infringed upon, because people can suffer, that rights don't exist in the least. It's an absurd notion that doesn't recognize what a right is. Instead you dogmatically avoid all argument and post little pictures thinking you're proving a point; but you've done nothing but show that there is suffering. Welcome to reality I guess. But the existence of suffering does not negate the existence of rights.
    Holy batcrap...

  10. #170
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Holy batcrap...
    It has been what you've posted. And you've never countered anything. You show suffering and say "oh look, rights don't exist". But that argument can only be true if you assert rights to be some magical device which can instantaneously satiate all desires at that moment. That's not what a right is, a right is something the people wield as restriction upon government. A right states what a person rightfully can have or can fight for if missing. It's not magic, magic doesn't exist.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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