View Poll Results: Are Rights Natural?

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    27 40.30%
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    32 47.76%
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Thread: Are Rights Natural?

  1. #151
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Government is an organization created by people, but the government itself is not people. Government also does not possess rights, groups cannot possess rights. Rights are held by the individual alone. I don't believe the concepts of rights are useless, in fact they are rather powerful. Is it all subjective in the end? Well it's not a hard science like physics and there is much political philosophy involved. But I do believe that rights are an important concept and that we can understand natural rights by considering the natural state which is free from outside forces.

    In the end, I think what you have here in this post is basically the zero solution. It satisfies the equations, yes; but no real information is given about the system.
    I personally don't think any group really possesses rights (socially defined), just people. So we agree, but for completely different reasons.

    They are useful in that they help guide us to achieve what we want to achieve and they are powerful. I agree with that.

    Yes it is all subjective in the end. Personally, I believe even God's desires are largely subjective. He created people because he wants to be loved. That sounds subjective to me. So yeah, I think the concept is all-encompassing.

    Anyway. I don't think these things can be made measurable unless we build a computer in which to perfectly simulate society and try different things and see what works. But even then, the desirability of various outcomes would still be subjective.

    The beauty and horror of it is that the system can be anything we imagine as long as we expend the energy and resources to build it. I did not seek to create a system, people will do that on their own because instinct and comfort compels them to and a lot of times they end up pretty unique solutions with (from my perspective) good and bad things about each and everyone one of them, including ours.

    Anyway. I think we are going to have to end it. I need to do chores around town for the sake of my kids. See ya.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-02-10 at 06:37 PM.

  2. #152
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    It's my body and my life, therefore, I affirm my sovereignty over them. You can deny my sovereignty but you will do so at the peril of civilized humanity.
    The world worked quite well with slavery for more than 90% of human existence.

    I disagree with slavery but civilization and humanity has shown that it flourishes with or without personal soveriegnty.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

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  3. #153
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    The world worked quite well with slavery for more than 90% of human existence.
    It worked well for a select few; the rest (the slaves especially) were living under tyranny and in abject poverty. So, while a few lived like humans, the rest lived as beasts. I wouldn't call that "civilization", just the mere appearance of it.

    I disagree with slavery but civilization and humanity has shown that it flourishes with or without personal soveriegnty.
    How can humanity be flourishing when a sizable portion of humanity is enslaved or impoverished?

  4. #154
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Of course. To assume otherwise is to destroy peace and humanity. We might as well be beasts, bashing one another's skulls in for scraps of meat in the gutter.
    Unless you consider all of history prior to the 1700's as nothing but a bunch of beasts, bashing one another's skulls in for scraps of meat in the gutter, then you are absolutely wrong.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

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  5. #155
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    A right is not a guarantee. This seems to be your stumbling block. You seem to envision rights as a magical cure all. If we have the right to property, then we all somehow magically have property. If we have the right to food, we somehow magically have food appear in front of us. But that's not a right, a right is a limitation upon the authority. We have the right to property, thus government should not be allowed to merely come and take our land at their own leisure. We have the right to life, thus the government cannot kill us at their whim. We have the right to liberty, thus government cannot deprive us of it rightfully by their own wishes and rules.

    Maybe if you stop living in fantasy land where magic and alchemy apparently exist, and come to the real world we can have a proper discussion. But if you want to think of rights as magic, then we're going to disagree fundamentally on what a right actually is.
    Riiiiiight...I'M the one living in a fantasy land. You have this inane notion that somehow rights just 'exist'...but I'M the one thats living in a fantasy...

  6. #156
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    A right is not a guarantee. This seems to be your stumbling block. You seem to envision rights as a magical cure all. If we have the right to property, then we all somehow magically have property. If we have the right to food, we somehow magically have food appear in front of us. But that's not a right, a right is a limitation upon the authority. We have the right to property, thus government should not be allowed to merely come and take our land at their own leisure. We have the right to life, thus the government cannot kill us at their whim. We have the right to liberty, thus government cannot deprive us of it rightfully by their own wishes and rules.

    Maybe if you stop living in fantasy land where magic and alchemy apparently exist, and come to the real world we can have a proper discussion. But if you want to think of rights as magic, then we're going to disagree fundamentally on what a right actually is.
    You remind me of the characters in "Life of Brian".

    We shall fight for his RIGHT to have babies, even if he cant actually HAVE babies, which is no ones fault...not even the Romans.

  7. #157
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Unless you consider all of history prior to the 1700's as nothing but a bunch of beasts, bashing one another's skulls in for scraps of meat in the gutter, then you are absolutely wrong.
    Okay, allow me to rephrase, we might as well be that or slaves. Either way, it's beast-like and uncivilized.

  8. #158
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    You remind me of the characters in "Life of Brian".

    We shall fight for his RIGHT to have babies, even if he cant actually HAVE babies, which is no ones fault...not even the Romans.
    So you've degraded to nothing but insults. Noted.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #159
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So you've degraded to nothing but insults. Noted.
    Someone should tell this guy he has the right to not be hungry

  10. #160
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    It worked well for a select few; the rest (the slaves especially) were living under tyranny and in abject poverty. So, while a few lived like humans, the rest lived as beasts. I wouldn't call that "civilization", just the mere appearance of it.
    so there were no civilizations prior to 1800's? Except for the one's without slaves?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    How can humanity be flourishing when a sizable portion of humanity is enslaved or impoverished?
    [/quote] you look at history from your the pinnacle you enjoy without regard to the ever increasing strides and acoomplishments present throughout.

    Likely, 1000 years from now people will look back at us with similiar disgust for things we can only imagine.

    JM roberts has an excellant world history book that will enlighten you to such things.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

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