View Poll Results: Are Rights Natural?

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  • Yes.

    27 40.30%
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    32 47.76%
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Thread: Are Rights Natural?

  1. #141
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Actually it does. If something is universal, it means we have no choice but to comply to it since it would be written into the very universe. We would not be able to break it any more than we could travel 10x the speed of light. But we can.
    Something universal means that it's possessed by all. Exercise of rights can be infringed upon by outside force. But people possess the right to fight that force if they so choose. And since that right would exist outside the societal and legal rights, it is then a natural right.

    You are almost right, instead of saying "it means we have no choice but to comply..." I would say "it means rightful government has no choice but to comply".
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #142
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I agree with all of this. The basis of natural rights is objective, that is, all humans desire to live in accordance with their will; this is the inherent quality upon which the morality (subjective) of individual negative liberty is based. Some may deny the logic or validty of that subjective extension, and that's perfectly reasonable, but they cannot deny the objective basis upon which it is founded.

    Agree?
    I think so. Yes.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  3. #143
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Based on being human.

    And the Constitution doesn't grant rights, it merely lists some of our rights. And you seem to have an interesting definition of "individual first" when you deny that the individual has rights.
    The individual simply 'is'. In our system of government (as it was established) the inidividual had rights enumerated.

    I'll ask it again...if you find yourself in the middle of the desert with no food water or shelter...will you be just fine because you have the 'right' to food water and shelter? What the hell does that even MEAN? Is it somehow UNFAIR if HUMANS who around the WORLD die every day...sometimes by the thousands...because of starvation? Because of disease? How the hell is that even POSSIBLE? After all...they have the RIGHT to eat...to drink...to own property...to live in a nice home...to have medical care. Good lord...do you not begin to see how INANE this notion of 'rights' is?

  4. #144
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Something universal means that it's possessed by all. Exercise of rights can be infringed upon by outside force. But people possess the right to fight that force if they so choose. And since that right would exist outside the societal and legal rights, it is then a natural right.

    You are almost right, instead of saying "it means we have no choice but to comply..." I would say "it means rightful government has no choice but to comply".
    They don't possess the right. The entire concept of rights is kind of useless now that I think about it. At least in the objective sense, which is the framework from which we are arguing. (if you catch me using the word in the future, it might be from a different perspective). They possess the opportunity as a function of time, space, and circumstance. They possess the power with the ATP in the muscle cells and the nerve impulses to transmit mental signals, they possess the reason because of their beliefs and their ideological framework.

    The concept of rightful government is invalid. They possess the same things the people possess since the government is people.

    On the universal level, even the concept of government is not valid since it simply an idea and ideas cannot exist outside of brains. They do not float around and cause things to happen. They can be obeyed or disobeyed at our choosing.

    All of it is ideas and all ideas are subjective. That's the only thing they can be since the human brain is a subject device. Even math and science are subjective when you get down to it, but at least we can measure those things against objective reality (at least the hard sciences).
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-02-10 at 06:19 PM.

  5. #145
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    The individual simply 'is'. In our system of government (as it was established) the inidividual had rights enumerated.

    I'll ask it again...if you find yourself in the middle of the desert with no food water or shelter...will you be just fine because you have the 'right' to food water and shelter? What the hell does that even MEAN? Is it somehow UNFAIR if HUMANS who around the WORLD die every day...sometimes by the thousands...because of starvation? Because of disease? How the hell is that even POSSIBLE? After all...they have the RIGHT to eat...to drink...to own property...to live in a nice home...to have medical care. Good lord...do you not begin to see how INANE this notion of 'rights' is?
    A right is not a guarantee. This seems to be your stumbling block. You seem to envision rights as a magical cure all. If we have the right to property, then we all somehow magically have property. If we have the right to food, we somehow magically have food appear in front of us. But that's not a right, a right is a limitation upon the authority. We have the right to property, thus government should not be allowed to merely come and take our land at their own leisure. We have the right to life, thus the government cannot kill us at their whim. We have the right to liberty, thus government cannot deprive us of it rightfully by their own wishes and rules.

    Maybe if you stop living in fantasy land where magic and alchemy apparently exist, and come to the real world we can have a proper discussion. But if you want to think of rights as magic, then we're going to disagree fundamentally on what a right actually is.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  6. #146
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    They don't possess the right. The entire concept of rights is kind of useless now that I think about it. At least in the objective sense, which is the framework from which we are arguing. (if you catch me using the word in the future, it might be from a different perspective). They possess the opportunity as a function of time, space, and circumstance. They possess the power with the ATP in the muscle cells and the nerve impulses to transmit mental signals, they possess the reason because of their beliefs and their ideological framework.

    The concept of rightful government is invalid. They possess the same things the people possess since the government is people.

    On the universal level, even the concept of government is not valid since it simply an idea and ideas cannot exist outside of brains. They do not float around and cause things to happen. They can be obeyed or disobeyed at our choosing.

    All of it is ideas and all ideas are subjective. That's the only thing they can be since the human brain is a subject device.
    Government is an organization created by people, but the government itself is not people. Government also does not possess rights, groups cannot possess rights. Rights are held by the individual alone. I don't believe the concepts of rights are useless, in fact they are rather powerful. Is it all subjective in the end? Well it's not a hard science like physics and there is much political philosophy involved. But I do believe that rights are an important concept and that we can understand natural rights by considering the natural state which is free from outside forces.

    In the end, I think what you have here in this post is basically the zero solution. It satisfies the equations, yes; but no real information is given about the system.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  7. #147
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I'm not saying people have to accept my version of liberty. But I will say that all people are entitled to stand up for it, to demand it, and to fight for it should the government or other outside forces act against it.
    You assume people are entitled to liberty. That is your subjective values speaking. Not something universally held or objective.

    You assume that liberty is the fundamental desire. I disagree. I believe desire/value is fundamental.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  8. #148
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Rights are just moral sentiments or affirmations based upon the concept of individual sovereignty. You're free to disagree with the notion of individual sovereignty, but that would make you sound like an authoritarian fool.

    It's my body and my life, therefore, I affirm my sovereignty over them. You can deny my sovereignty but you will do so at the peril of civilized humanity.
    Last edited by Ethereal; 03-02-10 at 06:25 PM.

  9. #149
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    You assume people are entitled to liberty. That is your subjective values speaking. Not something universally held or objective.

    You assume that liberty is the fundamental desire. I disagree. I believe desire/value is fundamental.
    I assume people are entitled to fight for liberty if they choose. Rights in the end are not magical, they can't just poof something into existence. But they tell you what you can rightfully fight for, what you can exert over outside forces such as government. Are people entitled to liberty? Yes of course. Does that mean it will automatically exist? Not really, outside force can suppress the exercise of a right. But you are then justified to fight that outside force. I think that Ethereal is better at explaining the concept of natural rights than I am at this point.
    Last edited by Ikari; 03-02-10 at 06:26 PM.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #150
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    You assume people are entitled to liberty.
    Of course. To assume otherwise is to destroy peace and humanity. We might as well be beasts, bashing one another's skulls in for scraps of meat in the gutter.

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