View Poll Results: Are Rights Natural?

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  • Yes.

    27 40.30%
  • No.

    32 47.76%
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    6 8.96%
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Thread: Are Rights Natural?

  1. #131
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    All people do have the right to life, liberty, and property. Just because it isn't fully realized everywhere doesn't mean the rights do not exist. The exercise of rights can be infringed upon by outside force, it happens more often than it should. People can be dicks, it's why anarchy doesn't work as a viable form of "government". But the use of force doesn't negate the right, the right exists and it's important to stress that point. People are justified in their rise against treason and tyranny because they have the right to secure for themselves a form of government which will abide by their innate and inalienable rights.

    The idea of natural rights is corner to libertarian philosophy. While many parties can have varying aspects and room for debate; there are cornerstones to the philosophy itself. And if you don't heed the cornerstone, you can hardly be called a practitioner of the philosophy. I've see a rise of poser libertarians lately, those who are essentially Republican but either don't want to admit it or are slightly dissatisfied with the current incarnation of the GOP. They aren't real libertarians because they don't understand our fundamental political philosophy and platform. They like to call themselves libertarian, but have done no research into our goals, our ideals, and our convictions.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #132
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    My desires are inconsequential for the sake of this argument. You claim that people are right in their fight to improve their lot. That suggests a set of rights which are inalienable.
    We desire something and often we act on that desire. If we are hungry, we attempt to secure food and eat. If we are horny, we attempt to have sex. If we are unsatisfied with our range of choices in life, we attempt to be more free.

    Any intellectual framework we put on top of that is just an intellectual framework. Sometimes we do things because of that intellectual framework, sometimes it is biological imperative, sometimes it is other things. But its really just nature doing what nature does. It is the same as the lion and the gazelle. We are just smart enough to create a structure around us called society where these things are abstracted and complex than that of the typical lion. It is because of that abstraction that we create for ourselves that we even made up the concept of rights. If you strip it away though, people will still be attempting to address their needs and wants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's not a measurement, it's a statement. Either humans are all equal or they are not. If we're all equal, then there is a set base of rights which is common to us all. That means there are natural rights which exist merely on the basis of our humanity.
    I don't think the question is answerable because there is no criteria to measure it. Like I said. We each have our own criteria, but there is no universal criteria, unless every single human agrees to it. Even then it would only be universal until 1 person disagrees.

  3. #133
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    You have listed all subjective desires. Evidence that your position is subjective and value based, not objective and universal.
    Those all do with a person. My speech is my own, you can't control it. Who I want to hang out with is my own, you can't control that either. There is a universal to all humans, in the end human is human. We all share a common set of rights based in life, liberty, and property.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  4. #134
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    We desire something and often we act on that desire. If we are hungry, we attempt to secure food and eat. If we are horny, we attempt to have sex. If we are unsatisfied with our range of choices in life, we attempt to be more free.

    Any intellectual framework we put on top of that is just an intellectual framework. Sometimes we do things because of that intellectual framework, sometimes it is biological imperative, sometimes it is other things. But its really just nature doing what nature does. It is the same as the lion and the gazelle. We are just smart enough to create a structure around us called society where these things are abstracted and complex than that of the typical lion. It is because of that abstraction that we create for ourselves that we even made up the concept of rights. If you strip it away though, people will still be attempting to address their needs and wants.
    Humans create society because we are fundamentally social creatures. We then have to remedy that with the natural state, which is where the concept of natural rights come in. While we are good with abstract thought (more so than any other creature), reason alone can lead us to the understanding of natural rights. We can comprehend things normally not seen in the animal kingdom. We can build past it too and construct social contract and legal right; but those are floppy definitions and can change depending on circumstance. Natural rights are the rights in the natural state and are inherent to all humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I don't think the question is answerable because there is no criteria to measure it. Like I said. We each have our own criteria, but there is no universal criteria, unless every single human agrees to it. Even then it would only be universal until 1 person disagrees.
    It's not as easy as say gravity, that's for sure. But one person disagreeing doesn't mean that there isn't a universal set of rights for all humans. You're always going to get some disagreement because some people are jerks and want to oppose the rights of the individual to better seek their position. Which is why the concept of natural rights becomes so important. We can conclude this through reason alone, and because that is our species forte we are able to understand the concept of natural rights and how they occur.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #135
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    All people do have the right to life, liberty, and property. Just because it isn't fully realized everywhere doesn't mean the rights do not exist. The exercise of rights can be infringed upon by outside force, it happens more often than it should. People can be dicks, it's why anarchy doesn't work as a viable form of "government". But the use of force doesn't negate the right, the right exists and it's important to stress that point. People are justified in their rise against treason and tyranny because they have the right to secure for themselves a form of government which will abide by their innate and inalienable rights.

    The idea of natural rights is corner to libertarian philosophy. While many parties can have varying aspects and room for debate; there are cornerstones to the philosophy itself. And if you don't heed the cornerstone, you can hardly be called a practitioner of the philosophy. I've see a rise of poser libertarians lately, those who are essentially Republican but either don't want to admit it or are slightly dissatisfied with the current incarnation of the GOP. They aren't real libertarians because they don't understand our fundamental political philosophy and platform. They like to call themselves libertarian, but have done no research into our goals, our ideals, and our convictions.
    Based on WHAT???

    I love being 'schooled' on being a 'real' libertarian. Gee...now...if I just adopt the mindles libertarian party principles I can enjoy the same role in politics as do all the rest of the elected libertarians. Never mind...I'll stick with MY libertarian beliefs...smaller federal government based on constitutional requirements. Individual first, state second, federal third.

    Its the constitution that provides for us those rights and freedoms we enjoy.

    In THIS COUNTRY...we have rights...fought for...bled for...some people died to preserve them. The framers of the constitution built a system of government that provides for those rights. Without that framework, they are just ideas.

  6. #136
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Humans create society because we are fundamentally social creatures. We then have to remedy that with the natural state, which is where the concept of natural rights come in. While we are good with abstract thought (more so than any other creature), reason alone can lead us to the understanding of natural rights. We can comprehend things normally not seen in the animal kingdom. We can build past it too and construct social contract and legal right; but those are floppy definitions and can change depending on circumstance. Natural rights are the rights in the natural state and are inherent to all humans.
    Ahh, so these natural rights bridge the gap between the animal world and society. That's great, but we really can fill that gap with anything we wish, since society is the collective contribution of all people in it. I see no reason why this concept should be preferred over any other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's not as easy as say gravity, that's for sure. But one person disagreeing doesn't mean that there isn't a universal set of rights for all humans. You're always going to get some disagreement because some people are jerks and want to oppose the rights of the individual to better seek their position. Which is why the concept of natural rights becomes so important. We can conclude this through reason alone, and because that is our species forte we are able to understand the concept of natural rights and how they occur.
    Actually it does. If something is universal, it means we have no choice but to comply to it since it would be written into the very universe. We would not be able to break it any more than we could travel 10x the speed of light. But we can and we do it every day.

    You have made very good practical arguments for its use as a concept to base society on. And I think it mostly is. It is a bit absolutist for my taste, but any concept can be taken to absurdity, so that's no big deal.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-02-10 at 06:09 PM.

  7. #137
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Those all do with a person. My speech is my own, you can't control it. Who I want to hang out with is my own, you can't control that either. There is a universal to all humans, in the end human is human. We all share a common set of rights based in life, liberty, and property.
    I don't even understand your definition and use of the word "rights".

    If you mean, like Ethereal said, that we all have a will and desires then I agree that everyone has that. But I don't know why you would equivocate that with "rights".

    We all share commonality in biology. But not everyone desires liberty, freedom, and other things you desire. You need to understand these are SUBJECTIVE desires and values. Not objective desires and values. That is the greatest aspect and most horrible flaw of self-awareness. It makes us capable of desiring and valueing everything to nothing and everything inbetween.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  8. #138
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Based on WHAT???
    Based on being human.

    And the Constitution doesn't grant rights, it merely lists some of our rights. And you seem to have an interesting definition of "individual first" when you deny that the individual has rights.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #139
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    But you can also make an intellectual extension that denies natural rights: Anarchy, asceticism, social darwinism, capitalism to name a few.

    The notion of natural rights is a subjective claim on how people "ought" to act in the objective world.

    Its nothing more than an opinion. I happen to agree with parts of this opinion because I think the current consequences of it have optimal effects. But I don't delude myself into thinking it is a universal and objective standard.
    I agree with all of this. The basis of natural rights is objective, that is, all humans desire to live in accordance with their will; this is the inherent quality upon which the morality (subjective) of individual negative liberty is based. Some may deny the logic or validty of that subjective extension, and that's perfectly reasonable, but they cannot deny the objective basis upon which it is founded.

    Agree?

  10. #140
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    I don't even understand your definition and use of the word "rights".

    If you mean, like Ethereal said, that we all have a will and desires then I agree that everyone has that. But I don't know why you would equivocate that with "rights".

    We all share commonality in biology. But not everyone desires liberty, freedom, and other things you desire. You need to understand these are SUBJECTIVE desires and values. Not objective desires and values. That is the greatest aspect and most horrible flaw of self-awareness. It makes us capable of desiring and valueing everything to nothing and everything inbetween.
    People can in fact desire a wide range of things. And it can be complicated by aggregated effects of society as well. I'm not saying people have to accept my version of liberty. But I will say that all people are entitled to stand up for it, to demand it, and to fight for it should the government or other outside forces act against it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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