View Poll Results: Are Rights Natural?

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    27 40.30%
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    32 47.76%
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    6 8.96%
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Thread: Are Rights Natural?

  1. #121
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    So they are subjective or objective?

    If they are objective then please name an objective right that every single person in history would agree with.
    The basis of rights is objective and natural, that is, all humans desire to live in accordance with their own will. The theory of individual liberty and natural rights is, however, subjective; it's simply an intellectual extension of a biological axiom.

  2. #122
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    The basis of rights is objective and natural, that is, all humans desire to live in accordance with their own will. The theory of individual liberty and natural rights is, however, subjective; it's simply an intellectual extension of a biological axiom.
    But you can also make an intellectual extension that denies natural rights: Anarchy, asceticism, social darwinism, capitalism to name a few.

    The notion of natural rights is a subjective claim on how people "ought" to act in the objective world.

    Its nothing more than an opinion. I happen to agree with parts of this opinion because I think the current consequences of it have optimal effects. But I don't delude myself into thinking it is a universal and objective standard.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  3. #123
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The end point is not whether a person feels they're justified. People can feel justified for many things. I'm sure the Kent State person felt justified in their rampage; but that rampage infringed on the base rights of others; notably the right to life. The point is more concrete than that, is the person justified. Do you think they are justified. If someone steals the product of my labor, am I justified in seeking damages? If someone tries to take my life, am I justified to defend it; no matter what the law may say. Is it right? Because in a world of floppy rights, I am beholden to only that which society and law has granted me. There's no right to revolt for instance. If a government acts grievously against my rights, I have no rightful recourse as they would have set the rules to forbid it. I may feel I have rightful recourse, but it doesn't actually exist in a world of purely floppy rights. But my feelings are inconsequential. Does it exist or does it not exist.
    I think the part you don't understand is that you will fight for what you perceive your rights to be because it is your desire.

    You keep going on about people having to accept the hand they are dealt if these rights do not exist. I disagree. If they think it is right to change their life in some way, than they will probably perform some actions towards that goal and either be successful or not. However, their belief is all the justification needed.

    You are perfectly justified in applying your natural rights, as you see them, because you believe in them and will act on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The end statement is, are all people fundamentally equal?
    I like to think they are equal, but how would we measure it? I hope they are equal, I think its good to treat them as if they were. My religion tells me that I should treat everyone as I wanted to be treated. I don't always do a good job at it, but I try. I don't think the question is answerable though or else I could whip out a spreadsheet or a math program and perform a series of proofs on it.

    As a practical and moral matter. Society seems to be more functional when we apply the concept of equality though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Is human human, or are we product purely of environmental/societal constructs? We prosper because that was our random chance. People who suffer must accept their suffering because that's their lot. If there are no fundamental rights, then those who suffer must accept and live in it. They have no just reason to fight. If there are fundamental rights, then those who suffer have just reason to fight against that since their rights have been infringed upon.
    We are a product of instinct, brain structure, the environment around us, the physical constraints of physics and chemistry. We prosper sometimes because of random chance, our choices, our birth circumstance, or any other number of reasons.

    You mention accepting the hand you are dealt again. Again I state that you only accept that if you believe you must accept it or if you think it is best to accept it. YOUR BELIEFS MATTER, but they only matter for you. Just like mine only matter for me. In fact if we didn't have beliefs, society would have never progressed beyond people standing around next to each other, each person doing their own thing. Its the interaction between our actions, driven by our beliefs, that make society function. So its really the opposite of how you imagine it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    In the end, I fall fairly well within Immanuel Kant's philosophy that natural rights can be realized through thought. And I think there is great importance in stressing a base set of natural rights.
    If that's what gets you out of bed in the morning, than great. I like to see people happy.

    I think we have gone as far as we can with this. It looks like we are simply restating ourselves at this point and have been for the last three posts.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-02-10 at 05:33 PM.

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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Just because people live in tyranny and oppression doesn't mean they don't have rights. They most certainly have the same base rights all humans enjoy, even if the exercise of such rights are forcible infringed upon by some outside force.
    Wow...I just cannot fathom the mindset that clings to that notion. We will obviously agree to disagree...

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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Wow...I just cannot fathom the mindset that clings to that notion. We will obviously agree to disagree...
    I can. It is the fear that if there is no standard, there is no reason to do anything, at least thats what I seem to be picking up from Ikari. I can understand, having no flaming road signs means we each have to make our own way and that is indeed a scary thing.

  6. #126
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I think the part you don't understand is that you will fight for what you perceive your rights to be because it is your desire.

    You keep going on about people having to accept the hand they are dealt if these rights do not exist. I disagree. If they think it is right to change their life in some way, than they will probably perform some actions towards that goal and either be successful or not. However, their belief is all the justification needed.

    What you don't seem to understand is that floppy rights means that one is not justified, no matter what their personal feelings are (you keep trying to bring that up, but that's merely a sidestep) in fighting back against the inequities and oppression they face. Since all rights under that circumstance are given by government, you have no rightful means by which to fight back. You have to accept it. If you think that people do have that right to fight back against oppression, even in the face of law and society, you are saying there is a set of rights which is inherent to us all; those would be natural rights.

    You are perfectly justified in applying your natural rights, as you see them, because you believe in them and will act on them.
    My desires are inconsequential for the sake of this argument. You claim that people are right in their fight to improve their lot. That suggests a set of rights which are inalienable.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I like to think they are equal, but how would we measure it? I hope they are equal, I think its good to treat them as if they were. My religion tells me that I should treat everyone as I wanted to be treated. I don't always do a good job at it, but I try. I don't think the question is objectively answerable though or else I could whip out a spreadsheet or a math program and perform a series of proofs on it.

    As a practical and moral matter. Society seems to be more functional when we apply the concept of equality though.
    It's not a measurement, it's a statement. Either humans are all equal or they are not. If we're all equal, then there is a set base of rights which is common to us all. That means there are natural rights which exist merely on the basis of our humanity.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  7. #127
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Wow...I just cannot fathom the mindset that clings to that notion. We will obviously agree to disagree...
    I cannot fathom the mindset of one who believes rights are merely privilege granted by government. Even further, I cannot fathom anyone subscribing to libertarian political philosophy who doesn't subscribe at least in part to Hobbes or Locke or Kant.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  8. #128
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I can. It is the fear that if there is no standard, there is no reason to do anything, at least thats what I seem to be picking up from Ikari. I can understand, having no flaming road signs means we each have to make our own way and that is indeed a scary thing.
    It's not that. It's the basis of humanity and our ability to protect ourselves against treason and tyranny. It's the very basis of this country in fact. Without natural rights, we have no justification to revolt, we have no basis to assert fundamentals such as press, religion, speech, association, etc. Natural rights are limitations to government, legal and social rights are constructs of the government and society. If that's all that exists, there's no justification to fight against it should the need arise.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #129
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I cannot fathom the mindset of one who believes rights are merely privilege granted by government. Even further, I cannot fathom anyone subscribing to libertarian political philosophy who doesn't subscribe at least in part to Hobbes or Locke or Kant.
    Thats OK...the libertarian party leadership didnt like it when I recommended they drop the legalize drugs notions on the national party platform. this may come as a shock, but libertarians are no different from democrats or republicans when it comes to zombielike adherence to party ideology.

    I dont buy into the 'natural' rights or 'human' rights idea because we simply have too many global examples where it isnt in play. We have examples in North American history where it wasnt employed.

    its a WONDERFUL notion. truly. Its not based on ANYTHING other than feel good ideas of morality...but it IS a wonderful thought...that people...all people...should have rights to freedom...property...liberty. The practical application fails.

  10. #130
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's not that. It's the basis of humanity and our ability to protect ourselves against treason and tyranny. It's the very basis of this country in fact. Without natural rights, we have no justification to revolt, we have no basis to assert fundamentals such as press, religion, speech, association, etc. Natural rights are limitations to government, legal and social rights are constructs of the government and society. If that's all that exists, there's no justification to fight against it should the need arise.
    You have listed all subjective desires. Evidence that your position is subjective and value based, not objective and universal.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

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