View Poll Results: Are Rights Natural?

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  • Yes.

    27 40.30%
  • No.

    32 47.76%
  • Other.

    6 8.96%
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    16 23.88%
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Thread: Are Rights Natural?

  1. #111
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    Cephus's Avatar
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    What I believe is not a farce. If you want to leave the absurd and go into childish insults, we're done. Good day to you. I won't entertain arguments of children.
    Run away as fast as you can, wouldn't want you to actually ADDRESS the failures of your philosophical system or anything.

    Can't say I'm surprised.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  2. #112
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Run away as fast as you can, wouldn't want you to actually ADDRESS the failures of your philosophical system or anything.

    Can't say I'm surprised.
    It's not running away. But the only way you can arrive to your insulting claims you make in childish ways is the abject rejection of any argument. In which case, there is no more debate. You won't entertain the idea of all humans being equal or having a base set of rights. And in the end, you've resorted to just childish insults, at which point we're done. If you can't respond in an intellectually honest manner, is there really a point to continuing on? I don't think so. Arguing with a child isn't very productive on the whole.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #113
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    I believe rights are a natural extension of intellectual truths or axioms.

    All humans desire to live in accordance with their will. This is a biological or natural inclination, inherent to all humans. This forms the natural basis for rights, which are an intellectual extension of this biological inclination.

  4. #114
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Run away as fast as you can, wouldn't want you to actually ADDRESS the failures of your philosophical system or anything.

    Can't say I'm surprised.
    You're such a snide individual. No one is impressed by you...

  5. #115
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I will need to come back to #1 and #2 later. My allergy medicine is making me forgetful (and very grouchy) and I think you deserve my full attention. You have #3 and #4 fully addressed in the previous post so I will get to those.

    #3, I am saying that both need to be learned. Depending on socialization and instinct. Different animals are different of course. For humans, it is definitely learned.

    #4. I disagree. All you are saying is that you place your morals above society's laws. That just means you believe in your morals strongly. I do the same thing, so do most people actually. You just happen to think yours are the only ones worth considering. Most people do that too though. The point is, each person decides this for themselves and they may or may not come to the same conclusions that you did.

    I address this more thoroughly in my last post against Ikari. But suffice to say that I completely do not agree with you, even on the most fundamental level, and because they are simply ideas, ultimately it does not matter. We will each do our thing and fight for what we think is right.
    I will say that I don't have a moral imposition in the fight, I'm advocating for the most basic moral structure that is agreeable to most reasonable people. Don't kill, steal, or harm, other than that I would argue as well that to infringe upon rights when necessity is in doubt or based solely on morals is in itself immoral. As for the rest, I will wait for your next response.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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  6. #116
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's not running away. But the only way you can arrive to your insulting claims you make in childish ways is the abject rejection of any argument. In which case, there is no more debate. You won't entertain the idea of all humans being equal or having a base set of rights. And in the end, you've resorted to just childish insults, at which point we're done. If you can't respond in an intellectually honest manner, is there really a point to continuing on? I don't think so. Arguing with a child isn't very productive on the whole.
    You just don't get it, Ikari. Cephus is way smarter than the Founders and the Enlightenment era philosophers that inspired them. They got nothing on him, with his epic blog and whatnot...
    Last edited by Ethereal; 03-02-10 at 04:53 PM.

  7. #117
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Ok. Something is not connecting between us. Because I tried to answer it the best I can. You assert that certain rights are universal, I do not. I think that is our fundamental difference. Applied to slavery, my conclusion is:

    My stance is ultimately that the slave decides the extent of their own freedom and they fight to try to accomplish it, they might succeed or fail. The same for the slave owner. Neither person is better or worse since it is up to their own moral framework to decide, but they do it for themselves. Of course we can also judge these two people based on our own moral criteria and come to our own conclusions. He may wish to be free, he may not wish to be free. Supposedly the slave sees some benefit in whatever he chooses.

    There is no overall objective framework to decide these things. I don't see how that's avoiding the question other than I am simply not acknowledging your concept of natural rights because I simply do not believe in them and that is an adequate reason for me. (I do believe in something very similar to your concept though, but we disagree on its source.)

    Perhaps if you restate the question in another form, we can make another attempt.
    The end point is not whether a person feels they're justified. People can feel justified for many things. I'm sure the Kent State person felt justified in their rampage; but that rampage infringed on the base rights of others; notably the right to life. The point is more concrete than that, is the person justified. Do you think they are justified. If someone steals the product of my labor, am I justified in seeking damages? If someone tries to take my life, am I justified to defend it; no matter what the law may say. Is it right? Because in a world of floppy rights, I am beholden to only that which society and law has granted me. There's no right to revolt for instance. If a government acts grievously against my rights, I have no rightful recourse as they would have set the rules to forbid it. I may feel I have rightful recourse, but it doesn't actually exist in a world of purely floppy rights. But my feelings are inconsequential. Does it exist or does it not exist.

    The end statement is, are all people fundamentally equal? Is human human, or are we product purely of environmental/societal constructs? We prosper because that was our random chance. People who suffer must accept their suffering because that's their lot. If there are no fundamental rights, then those who suffer must accept and live in it. They have no just reason to fight. If there are fundamental rights, then those who suffer have just reason to fight against that since their rights have been infringed upon.

    In the end, I fall fairly well within Immanuel Kant's philosophy that natural rights can be realized through thought. And I think there is great importance in stressing a base set of natural rights.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  8. #118
    Doesn't go below juicy
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I will say that I don't have a moral imposition in the fight, I'm advocating for the most basic moral structure that is agreeable to most reasonable people. Don't kill, steal, or harm, other than that I would argue as well that to infringe upon rights when necessity is in doubt or based solely on morals is in itself immoral. As for the rest, I will wait for your next response.
    I think your morals are pretty good in that they mesh pretty well with mine. but that's as far as each of us can go. If we had a hive mind, the situation would be very different :P.

  9. #119
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Wait! Let me rephrase my definition...

    Rights are the intellectual expression of humanity's natural inclination to live in accordance with one's will. They are a moral sentiment arising from nature, so, in that regard, they are natural.

  10. #120
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    Re: Are Rights Natural?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Wait! Let me rephrase my definition...

    Rights are the intellectual expression of humanity's natural inclination to live in accordance with one's will. They are a moral sentiment arising from nature, so, in that regard, they are natural.
    So they are subjective or objective?

    If they are objective then please name an objective right that every single person in history would agree with.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

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