View Poll Results: Where did the Universe come from?

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  • From the Big Bang, not sure what was before. God does not exist and was not involved.

    39 38.24%
  • Not the Big Bang, but some other physical event. God does not exist and was not involved.

    2 1.96%
  • God created the Universe without a Big Bang. Earth was especially created.

    2 1.96%
  • God created the Universe with a Big Bang and then the universe evolved.

    37 36.27%
  • Some other mechanism created the Universe, without God...

    13 12.75%
  • God created the Universe in some other fashion...

    9 8.82%
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Thread: Where did the Universe come from?

  1. #271
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    thats like saying theres no such thing as distance because we use human methods to measure it, or that if every being on earth closed its eyes at the same time, light would not exist.
    That isn't what I understood the articles to be saying. My understanding is that these people are theorizing that time is an emergent property rather than a fundamental one. As an example, its theorized that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain as opposed, for example, that a mind can exist independent of the brain.
    Last edited by scourge99; 03-11-10 at 01:24 PM.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  2. #272
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    That isn't what I understood the articles to be saying. My understanding is that these people are theorizing that time is an emergent property rather than a fundamental one. As an example, its theorized that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain as opposed, for example, that a mind can exist independent of the brain.
    oh yeah, you're right, i misread the article
    So follow me into the desert
    As desperate as you are
    Where the moon is glued to a picture of heaven
    And all the little pigs have God

  3. #273
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by paris View Post
    No... Yes...

    Yes... No...
    I am lost..

    Quote Originally Posted by paris View Post
    PS: Im an atheist by the way
    And...? I was an atheist for a good part of my life and still could count, - how is your remark related to my post?

  4. #274
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGirlNextDoor View Post
    In other words - because people here have stated or tried to state their own thoughts on the topic, you feel justified in coming forth and insulting and belittling these people.

    So we don't believe as you do, therefore we are stupid and not capable of intelligent thought.

    How nice and open minded of you. For being familiar with the OP and stating that he is an intelligent person that would love an intelligent debate, you single handedly killed the topic.

    Congratulations on your*own* lack of intelligent contribution - exactly doing what you've accused others here of - at least the rest of us came to the thread with some sort of on-topic relevance.

    Love,
    An Atheist
    I just asked the most simple question:'' Let me ask you a simple question. If you think that the universe… I wouldn’t even ask you to explain how one can think so… let’s say it always has been, - then who made it start heading to the end, to death, non-existence all over suddenly?''

    I just asked the most simple question exactly addressing the OP and your beleif...

    And I got some burst, such a burst,.... like you are having a menopause?... or something... hormons...

    And of course I got no reply to the simple question. And the fact that I got no reply to the simple question proves each and every word of my post to be true.

    And then you call such a burst love?

    try this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerian_(herb) No kidding. It has been working for milleniums.
    Last edited by justone; 03-11-10 at 11:32 PM.

  5. #275
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    You are aware that the Oscars are over and you didn't win any prizes for lamest comedy, aren't you?
    An attempt of a little personal attack. Atheists. I just commended a poster for the posts I liked, I gave him the Oscar. It is not like I claimed anything for myself, not at all. You just pervert it because atheists pervert everything. Thank you for another demonstration of intellectual perversion of atheists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    See, if you had the ability to understand the arguments, and because you have "religion", you can't understand them, you wouldn't have been able to make the above blisteringly ignorant response after reading twenty six pages of dialogue that put reefedjib in his place.
    A little personal insult. Thank you for another demonstration of intellectual misery of atheists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    For example, you're confusng the entropic cycle of this observed bubble of space-time with the "universe", either deliberately or ignorantly assuming that our arguments about what Philip Jose Farmer neatly termed the "pluriverse" were directly applicable to the single "universe" that we are able to percieve with our evolved senses.

    As usual atheists never address my words but produce some absurd not even knowing what they are talking about.

    What the entropic cycle of what this observed bubble of what space time? And where I did make any statement about all the listed, and how should I comment on you spitting at your own strawmen?

    What are you talking about throwing words with no sense, no definition, no application to any reality?

    Let me look up Farmer. science fiction and fantasy novels… - are you serious? Well I guess you are. I have proved many time that atheists live by fantasies. How did senses evolve? Oh my, oh my…


    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Since it was clearly pointed out that since this "universe" had a clearly definable origin in time, it must exist as a subset of some other more eternal space and time coordinate frame.
    What is definable origins in time? By what logic, by what observation, by what calculations it must exist as a subset? If it must exist as a subset of some other more eternal space and time coordinate frame, then a subset of some other more eternal space and time coordinate frame must exist as a subset of some other more eternal space and time coordinate frame, and subset of other subset which in its turn is subset of another subset of a subset..

    What the hell is ‘more eternal space’’? What the hell is ‘’more eternal time’’? You must be sent to France where they still teach how to count. It is amazing and amusing how people who have never learned how to count jump into a conversation which generally requires even more then ability of simple counting. Please go to France, learn mathematical meanings of more and less, then try again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    The complete lack of evidence of intelligent origin or operation of this observed space we occupy presents no basis for assuming the larger pluriverse has any intelligence driving it's course.
    What, what? What is large and what is pluriverse and what is course of the larger pluriverse, and what are boundaries of the ‘’observed space’’ and who are “we” who “occupies’’? Who is assuming what? Why each and every time do atheists come up with some kind of total delirium and I have to try to make out some rational meaning in it? I just pointed to reefedjib that it is a sure way to loose it when you try to make sense out of total nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Indeed, absolutely nothing is observable about the course, or lack thereof, of the greater space-time continuum of which we theorize must exist.

    To presume that greater space-time has an intelligent aspect is merest hubris on your part.
    To presume that I ever presumed greater space-time or to presume that I even can see any meaning in such a presumption is merest hubris on your part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    This universe came into existence, it will die, at absolute zero, in the far future.
    It is very awkwardly expressed, but OK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    There is no reason to suspect that it has any reason for existing whatsoever.
    Did I ever claim that the universe has reason or any ability of reasoning?

    There are certain rules. I play by the rules. In these rules all effects have causes and all causes have one or more effects. All things and phenomena in our only universe do. This is the rule. Atheists play with no rules. Anything goes – and they call it science. If the universe came to existence there was a reason for such an effect or speaking correctly there was a cause of such an effect. One has to be mentally retarded to suggest the opposite because we conceive the reality through our senses; and the only fact our senses know is that ‘’in the world of sensible things we find there is an order of efficient causes. There is no case known (neither is it, indeed possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible.’’


    RULE II.
    Therefore to the same natural effects we must, as far as possible, assign the same causes.
    RULE III.
    The qualities of bodies, which admit neither intension nor remission of degrees, and which are found to belong to all bodies within the reach of our experiments, are to be esteemed the universal qualities of all bodies whatsoever.

    Atheists know no rules, they have no sense of reality.


    You see, if the one follows rules of reasoning and if one’s senses are not retarded, a proof that the universe (everything we can sense around us including ourselves) came to existence is a sufficient proof of God.


    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    And books written by neolithic sheep herders intent on imbuing their patriarchal societies with their God's Approval don't count as evidence.
    Did reefedjib or for the same matter I ever invoke or refer to books written by neolithic sheep herders in the scientific proof of God? reefedjib is not even a Christian he believes in the same things as you do, that’s why he was destined to loose. He believes in some kind of a startsutra, that’s why he was destined to loose. Yet he made some very good and genius posts. Very elegant. He honestly tried to have a conversation. You just spew hatred at your own strawmen.

    neolithic sheep herders created the perfect system of proofs. I don’t know any other system which could even try to reach their level. I would think about Principia quoted above as of the only good resemblance… but it is another subject. So far we have not revoked the Bible and we are on opposite sides of the spectrum, reefedjib is not a Christian when I am, and the fact is that that you're attacking your own strawmen.
    Last edited by justone; 03-11-10 at 11:42 PM.

  6. #276
    Sporadic insanity normal.


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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    The Universe came, and is.

    Or perhaps it is not.

    /shrug

    Even if we are living in an artificial framework that just makes us think it's a universe, how could we possibly tell, and how would it matter to us in any meaningful way?
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  7. #277
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    The Universe came, and is.

    Or perhaps it is not.

    /shrug

    Even if we are living in an artificial framework that just makes us think it's a universe, how could we possibly tell, and how would it matter to us in any meaningful way?
    if one accepts the following to be the self -evident truth:
    I think, therefore I am,

    then we can tell and it matters, unless you comlpetely abandon the process of thinking ( which it seems you have been advocating) and as it seems you have been calling for turn yourself into an animal.

    But if one accepts the following to be the self -evident truth:
    I think, therefore I am,

    one should remember that this assumption has been used as a proof of God.

    It is your choice, - either an animal, or a Christian.

  8. #278
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    twenty six pages of dialogue that put reefedjib in his place.
    What!? Put me in my place?? It never happened. I never argued anything other than my opinion which is unassailable. I did not loose any argument here.

  9. #279
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    if one accepts the following to be the self -evident truth:
    I think, therefore I am,

    then we can tell and it matters, unless you comlpetely abandon the process of thinking ( which it seems you have been advocating) and as it seems you have been calling for turn yourself into an animal.

    But if one accepts the following to be the self -evident truth:
    I think, therefore I am,

    one should remember that this assumption has been used as a proof of God.

    It is your choice, - either an animal, or a Christian.
    not a buddhist or a muslim or a taosit? or are they just animals?
    So follow me into the desert
    As desperate as you are
    Where the moon is glued to a picture of heaven
    And all the little pigs have God

  10. #280
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    not a buddhist or a muslim or a taosit? or are they just animals?
    You are quoting out of the context and prescribing meanings which were not in the text, the meanings of your own perception, of your own choice.

    I SAID –
    IT
    IS
    YOUR
    CHOICE.

    If you choose Buddhism conscientiously abandoning the process of thinking (as it seemed to me the poster I replied to was suggesting) – then you look at them as a Buddhist.

    For some reason I cannot get to my e-mail from DP; but I have to figure out why I was banned for “hate speech”. I can guess it was for the post you are questioning???

    Again, it is very simple, - it is YOUR choice. If you choose hatred you see me and a buddhist or a muslim or a taosit as being hateful and capable of hate speech, to be the same as you are.

    Obviously, I have chosen Christianity, thus in my perception they all – a buddhist or a muslim or a taosit, and even Captain Courtesy have souls however difficult could it be for you understand that even Captain Courtesy was created in God’s image and has a soul.

    Now, I have answered your question. Please answer my question: – what is your choice, - do they all (and please do not exclude Captain Courtesy) have a soul, or soul does not exist or something else? What religion are you of?

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