View Poll Results: Where did the Universe come from?

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  • From the Big Bang, not sure what was before. God does not exist and was not involved.

    39 38.24%
  • Not the Big Bang, but some other physical event. God does not exist and was not involved.

    2 1.96%
  • God created the Universe without a Big Bang. Earth was especially created.

    2 1.96%
  • God created the Universe with a Big Bang and then the universe evolved.

    37 36.27%
  • Some other mechanism created the Universe, without God...

    13 12.75%
  • God created the Universe in some other fashion...

    9 8.82%
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Thread: Where did the Universe come from?

  1. #201
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    I suggest everyone in the current argument about free will read this [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination]Predestination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Sounds complicated.
    Yeah, but it doesn't have to be. I pulled in the Pantheism comparison and that seems to be complicated.

  3. #203
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I suggest everyone in the current argument about free will read this Predestination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Just like reef's claims, I didn't see any explanation on how freewill can exist if god is omniscient and created everything.
    I just saw the assertion that "freewill can exist""predestination is not required".

    The best attempt to address this was to claim that god doesn't know the future and only knows the "now". This does resolve theproblem instead it redefines omniscience to deal with the problems. I wouldn't label a god that doesn't know the future as omnisciennt because he doesn't know everything.
    Last edited by scourge99; 03-02-10 at 01:00 PM.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

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  4. #204
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Please explain how everything is not determined if God knows exactly how, when and where everything in the universe will turn out before he made it and then he makes it.

    Please, do not just assert "because of freewill". That is not an explanation.
    Quoting from the subsequent post on Predestination:
    Discussion of predestination usually involves consideration of whether God is omniscient, or eternal or atemporal (free from limitations of time or even causality). In terms of these ideas, God may see the past, present, and future, so that God effectively knows the future. If God in some sense knows ahead of time what will happen, then events in the universe are effectively predetermined from God's point of view. This is a form of determinism but not predestination since the latter term implies that God has actually determined (rather than simply seen) in advance the destiny of creatures.
    and specifically:
    A contrasting Christian view maintains that God is completely sovereign over all things but that he chose to give each individual free will, which each person can exercise to accept or reject God's offer of salvation and hence God allows man's choice to determine his future.
    Last edited by reefedjib; 03-02-10 at 12:59 PM.

  5. #205
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Quoting from the subsequent post on Predestination:


    and specifically:
    And they offer NO explanation. They simply assert that freewill can exist.

    They also did not include our other assumption: that god created the universe.

    I don't see how things cannot be predetermined if God knows exactly how everything will be determined before he creates everything and then creates everything.

    If we want to redefine omniscience to mean that God doesn't know everything before it happens then I agree that this leaves wiggle room for freewill.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

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  6. #206
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    And they offer NO explanation. They simply assert that freewill can exist.

    They also did not include our other assumption: that god created the universe.

    I don't see how things cannot be predetermined if God knows exactly how everything will be determined before he creates everything and then creates everything.

    If we want to redefine omniscience to mean that God doesn't know everything before it happens then I agree that this leaves wiggle room for freewill.
    No, the argument goes that God predetermined the universe, in that he had foreknowledge of what would occur. However, he allowed for freewill by not implementing predestination. Man's choices are his own.

  7. #207
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    No, the argument goes that God predetermined the universe, in that he had foreknowledge of what would occur. However, he allowed for freewill by not implementing predestination. Man's choices are his own.
    That doesn't address the issue. Its just an assertion that freewill exists despite the presented reasoning why it cannot!!!

    I have explained this 5 or six times and you just keep asserting "freewill exists" as though it explains away the problem. It doesn't.

    It would be like us agreeing that God has made playing baseball impossible and then you asserting that someone has won the world series of baseball. This is EXACTLY what you do everytime you assert "freewill exists". You make a blatant contradiction. Its not possible unless you redefine what the world series of baseball is or some other understanding of the assumptions made.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  8. #208
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    That doesn't address the issue. Its just an assertion that freewill exists despite the presented reasoning why it cannot!!!

    I have explained this 5 or six times and you just keep asserting "freewill exists" as though it explains away the problem. It doesn't.

    It would be like us agreeing that God has made playing baseball impossible and then you asserting that someone has won the world series of baseball. This is EXACTLY what you do everytime you assert "freewill exists". You make a blatant contradiction. Its not possible unless you redefine what the world series of baseball is or some other understanding of the assumptions made.
    Negative. The universe allows for omniscience, creation and freewill. You are the one who is trying to use such a strict definition for omniscience that it excludes freewill. It doesn't work that way, buddy!

  9. #209
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    No, the argument goes that God predetermined the universe, in that he had foreknowledge of what would occur. However, he allowed for freewill by not implementing predestination. Man's choices are his own.
    If god is omnscient and made everything thus predetermining everything, then how can there not be predestination??

    I don't see how unless you redefine omniscience or predetermine.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    On principle, I have faith that God is ALL. God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. God created the Universe. I believe that God did this using mechanisms of science so he used a Big Bang to create the energy of the Universe, which evolved into the galaxies and stars we know today.
    Which god?

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