View Poll Results: Where did the Universe come from?

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  • From the Big Bang, not sure what was before. God does not exist and was not involved.

    39 38.24%
  • Not the Big Bang, but some other physical event. God does not exist and was not involved.

    2 1.96%
  • God created the Universe without a Big Bang. Earth was especially created.

    2 1.96%
  • God created the Universe with a Big Bang and then the universe evolved.

    37 36.27%
  • Some other mechanism created the Universe, without God...

    13 12.75%
  • God created the Universe in some other fashion...

    9 8.82%
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Thread: Where did the Universe come from?

  1. #171
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    At the time, you decide what you will do. Choice. You could have decided differently. God just happens to know what choice you make before you make it.
    You are missing the last part about God having created everything with foreknowledge:

    Because God knows exactly what choice you will make and because God created everything, how do you have an option to choose differently then God foresaw at creation?

    If you can't choose differently then what God foresees you choosing then how have you made a choice?
    Last edited by scourge99; 03-01-10 at 11:03 PM.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  2. #172
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Blow me. You didn't point out anything wrong, you just said I was wrong.
    You said He doesn't have to know the details of every part.

    Ergo, you're saying It isn't Omniscient, thereby conforming to my rule that states that everyone believing in the coexistence of freewill in humans who are the product of a Perfect Omniscient and Omnipotent Creator will exercise their freewill to redefine one of the Three Words, Omniscient, Omnipotent, or Perfect to preserve their bias rather than accepting that their bias is inconsistent with what those words actually mean.



    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Sure she can. She knows how it will evolve but did not place particle X at Y. Still particle X is at Y. She didn't plan it but she knows.
    So you're saying He's not Omnipotent, then? That He just pooped out a universe, then mapped the world lines of it's particles, and thus doesn't particularly care one way or the other what happens? The Act of Creation as "What Pops Out of This Zit?" approach to God? Still requires the lack of Omniscience by the God-critter, though.

  3. #173
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    You are missing the last part about God having created everything with foreknowledge:

    Because God knows exactly what choice you will make and because God created everything, how do you have an option to choose differently then God foresaw at creation?
    You have freewill so you have the option to choose differently, but if you do then God will know, so you can never choose differently that what God forsees. However, God is not making the choice, you are.

    If you can't choose differently then what God foresees you choosing then how have you made a choice?
    You still have freewill and you still make a choice.

  4. #174
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    You have freewill so you have the option to choose differently, but if you do then God will know, so you can never choose differently that what God forsees. However, God is not making the choice, you are.



    You still have freewill and you still make a choice.
    If it's predetermined, it's not a choice. A rock tossed off a roof doesn't choose to hit the ground, it just does. If it hit's the neighbor in the head first, it didn't make that choice, either, that was the Holy Thrower's option.

  5. #175
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    You said He doesn't have to know the details of every part.

    Ergo, you're saying It isn't Omniscient, thereby conforming to my rule that states that everyone believing in the coexistence of freewill in humans who are the product of a Perfect Omniscient and Omnipotent Creator will exercise their freewill to redefine one of the Three Words, Omniscient, Omnipotent, or Perfect to preserve their bias rather than accepting that their bias is inconsistent with what those words actually mean.
    Here is what I wrote:
    The Creator knows exactly what will happen at all times.
    The Creator creates the universe with freewill by humans.
    The Creator does not plan all events, She just has knowledge of them.
    I assume you have an issue with the third statement? What is so surprising about having knowledge but not planning? The universe evolves. I create it with XYZ initial conditions. It evolves and I am aware of what it does and will do, but I did not plan it I just gave initial conditions.

    Furthermore, the universe is an indeterminant place. Quantum mechanics dictate randomness and it relies on the observer. So, again, God did not plan, yet God has knowledge.

    So you're saying He's not Omnipotent, then? That He just pooped out a universe, then mapped the world lines of it's particles, and thus doesn't particularly care one way or the other what happens? The Act of Creation as "What Pops Out of This Zit?" approach to God? Still requires the lack of Omniscience by the God-critter, though.
    Not at all. God still knows what happens.

  6. #176
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    If it's predetermined, it's not a choice. A rock tossed off a roof doesn't choose to hit the ground, it just does. If it hit's the neighbor in the head first, it didn't make that choice, either, that was the Holy Thrower's option.
    But it was the neighbor's choice to take a walk. Freewill.

  7. #177
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    You are missing the last part about God having created everything with foreknowledge:

    Because God knows exactly what choice you will make and because God created everything, how do you have an option to choose differently then God foresaw at creation?

    If you can't choose differently then what God foresees you choosing then how have you made a choice?
    You have freewill so you have the option to choose differently, but if you do then God will know, so you can never choose differently that what God forsees. However, God is not making the choice, you are.



    You still have freewill and you still make a choice.

    I really can't help you any more reefedjib. You completely failed to address my last post and simply re-asserted your claim even though I've repeatedly shown it is contradictory with an omniscient, omnipotent, God who created the universe.

    You are just ignoring what I have said and merely reiterating that "you have freewill so it just works".

    Like I said before, I explained the problems with freewill and an omnipotent, omniscient God who created everything but then you promptly ignore them by asserting "I have freewill so I can choose". You aren't addressing the contradictions. You are merely asserting you have freewill every time a contradiction comes up.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  8. #178
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    But it was the neighbor's choice to take a walk. Freewill.
    We're not talking about the neighbor, we're talking about where the rock lands.

    Rocks don't have a will, free or otherwise.

  9. #179
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Here is what I wrote:


    I assume you have an issue with the third statement? What is so surprising about having knowledge but not planning? The universe evolves. I create it with XYZ initial conditions. It evolves and I am aware of what it does and will do, but I did not plan it I just gave initial conditions.
    Yes, exactly wrong, since the Creatorthingy we're discussing has perfect knowledge of what It's doing.

    You're now assuming it lacks perfect knowledge. Ie, you're now claiming it is not omniscient, which is consistent with my claim that freewill cannot exist in a universe created by an omniscient omnipotent being. You concur, and remove the being's omniscience.

    [quote=reefedjib;1058594355]Furthermore, the universe is an indeterminant place. Quantum mechanics dictate randomness and it relies on the observer. So, again, God did not plan, yet God has knowledge.[quote]

    Yes, the Universe IS indeterminate from our viewpoint. Are you now claiming your omnipotent Goddess is limited to our human point of view?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Not at all. God still knows what happens.
    You keep making the assertion so devoutly.

    I'm going to go eat.

  10. #180
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    I really can't help you any more reefedjib. You completely failed to address my last post and simply re-asserted your claim even though I've repeatedly shown it is contradictory with an omniscient, omnipotent, God who created the universe.

    You are just ignoring what I have said and merely reiterating that "you have freewill so it just works".

    Like I said before, I explained the problems with freewill and an omnipotent, omniscient God who created everything but then you promptly ignore them by asserting "I have freewill so I can choose". You aren't addressing the contradictions. You are merely asserting you have freewill every time a contradiction comes up.
    It is not the only contradiction in the world. How can we be a nation of peace and go to war every 10-20 years?

    These things are true:
    God is omniscient
    God is omnipotent
    God is omnipresent
    God created the universe
    We each have freewill

    Just because God knows what decision we will make doesn't mean that we did not make it with freewill.

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