View Poll Results: Where did the Universe come from?

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  • From the Big Bang, not sure what was before. God does not exist and was not involved.

    39 38.24%
  • Not the Big Bang, but some other physical event. God does not exist and was not involved.

    2 1.96%
  • God created the Universe without a Big Bang. Earth was especially created.

    2 1.96%
  • God created the Universe with a Big Bang and then the universe evolved.

    37 36.27%
  • Some other mechanism created the Universe, without God...

    13 12.75%
  • God created the Universe in some other fashion...

    9 8.82%
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Thread: Where did the Universe come from?

  1. #141
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Fine. I didnt pose it as a gateway into a religous discussion. I dont have religous discussions...and certainly not online. Personally I find it boring.
    Oh, religious discussions can be a real hoot.

    I see someone argued that their God is omnipotent, perfect, and omniscient.

    That means he either doesn't believe in free will or he doesn't understand the meaning of the words "omniscient", "omnipotent", and "perfect".

  2. #142
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Oh, religious discussions can be a real hoot.

    I see someone argued that their God is omnipotent, perfect, and omniscient.

    That means he either doesn't believe in free will or he doesn't understand the meaning of the words "omniscient", "omnipotent", and "perfect".
    Why would God being omnipotent, perfect, and omniscient (and omnipresent) imply that one doesn't believe in freewill?

  3. #143
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Then God's actions are not his own, he's just a machine, and saying "God created the universe" is nonsensical, since involuntary acts are devoid of meaning, and the only questions remaining are those of mechanics. Thus to claim that a sentient God does things without any control over them is no different than to claim that the things happen of their own accord, but with the added complexity of "why the hell is this God guy sentient but incapable of action, and who wrote that program, anyway?"

  4. #144
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Then God's actions are not his own, he's just a machine, and saying "God created the universe" is nonsensical, since involuntary acts are devoid of meaning, and the only questions remaining are those of mechanics. Thus to claim that a sentient God does things without any control over them is no different than to claim that the things happen of their own accord, but with the added complexity of "why the hell is this God guy sentient but incapable of action, and who wrote that program, anyway?"
    Well, now, see, I believe God is omniscient AND has freewill and so consciously chooses to create the universe. Is there a problem with this?

  5. #145
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Why would God being omnipotent, perfect, and omniscient (and omnipresent) imply that one doesn't believe in freewill?
    Because one can't create a universe knowing everything about it, and make choices knowing about every option that choice implies, and doing the thing perfectly right without making a single mistake...and not knowing exactly what it going to happen. And if the critter that made the gadget knows exactly what it is going to do, with perfect knowledge, the gadget doesn't have any choice, even when the gadget is made to believe it has choice.

    A perfect omniscient and omnipotent god can create a perfectly deterministic universe. She can't create anything else but, if He expects to have knowledge of what Her creation does. From our viewpoint as the Created Things That Think, our only knowledge, from this non-deterministic universe we inhabit, is that any postulated God cannot possess foreknowledge of events in this universe, hence It cannot be omniscient. And if She has a volume of deliberate ignorance in her space, as is required for the known non-deterministic universe She is postulated to have created, then, by definition, she not omniscient at all.

    Working with absolute terms is so much fun. The religious types are so proud of themselves when the come up with these absolute ideas and so angry when your local wiseass points out the inconsistencies in adding them together.

  6. #146
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Well, now, see, I believe God is omniscient AND has freewill and so consciously chooses to create the universe. Is there a problem with this?
    Your GOD can have freewill and omniscience and omnipotence and not make any mistakes. But when She does, you do not have freewill.

  7. #147
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Your GOD can have freewill and omniscience and omnipotence and not make any mistakes. But when She does, you do not have freewill.
    She will make it with freewill for the people. It is still the people's choice and not determined by God, but God knows what will happen because She is omniscient.

  8. #148
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Because one can't create a universe knowing everything about it, and make choices knowing about every option that choice implies, and doing the thing perfectly right without making a single mistake...and not knowing exactly what it going to happen. And if the critter that made the gadget knows exactly what it is going to do, with perfect knowledge, the gadget doesn't have any choice, even when the gadget is made to believe it has choice.

    A perfect omniscient and omnipotent god can create a perfectly deterministic universe. She can't create anything else but, if He expects to have knowledge of what Her creation does. From our viewpoint as the Created Things That Think, our only knowledge, from this non-deterministic universe we inhabit, is that any postulated God cannot possess foreknowledge of events in this universe, hence It cannot be omniscient. And if She has a volume of deliberate ignorance in her space, as is required for the known non-deterministic universe She is postulated to have created, then, by definition, she not omniscient at all.

    Working with absolute terms is so much fun. The religious types are so proud of themselves when the come up with these absolute ideas and so angry when your local wiseass points out the inconsistencies in adding them together.
    I think it is possible for Her to be omniscient and to create a non-deterministic universe.

  9. #149
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    She will make it with freewill for the people. It is still the people's choice and not determined by God, but God knows what will happen because She is omniscient.
    See what I mean about how the introduction of freewill in the creation requires the True Believer to abandon the standard definitions of words to make up their own uses?

  10. #150
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    Re: Where did the Universe come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    See what I mean about how the introduction of freewill in the creation requires the True Believer to abandon the standard definitions of words to make up their own uses?
    No, where have I done this?

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