View Poll Results: Is the EU a freer, more open society in terms of rights and policies?

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  • Yes

    15 22.39%
  • No

    41 61.19%
  • Other - explain

    11 16.42%
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Thread: Is Europe "freer" that America or just as "free"?

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    Re: Is Europe "freer" that America or just as "free"?

    The point is that an armed citizenry makes government more cautious than it would otherwise be about infringing on their citizen's rights in most cases.
    Is there a study on this? Weren't you know... Iraqis under Saddam well armed?

    Politicians fear being assassinated... that is why some have tried to ban certain high-powered long-range rifles used by snipers.
    Wait your saying politicians were trying to ban rifles so they could do evil things without being assassinated? Examples? I have a personal theory on this but I would rather know what went on in real life.

    Such a capacity necessarily makes government a little more circumspect than it would be otherwise. Witness the aftermath of the Weavers at Ruby Ridge and the Branch Davidians in Waco. In both cases gov't pushed too hard, took significant casualties, suffered lots of bad press and bad public opinion... and since then has been a lot more circumspect about launching military-style raids on despised religious minorities.
    You're seriously calling them Religious minorities? Not... religiously insane? Attempting to prepare for an apocalypse because you believe you have been informed by a divine means is a right? Believing you're a new messiah is a right?

    It isn't about fighting the military in open warfare, it is about the ability of the people to immediately engage in armed resistance when the government goes too far.
    So... this is about the government trying to come and kill you? You fear your own government trying to kill you enough that you actually invest money in an instrument of death and keep it in your home, because you fear they will come for you?

    Sorry if I'm coming off as too argumentative. But some of this is just insane.

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    Re: Is Europe "freer" that America or just as "free"?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    Aww... is this another thread about how we need guns to start a hypothetical violent revolution against the government cause government is evil?
    Are you one of those naive people who trusts humans with concentrated power?

    Standard operating procedures, protocols, and bureaucrats?
    Humans. The government is made up of humans. And humans are nasty, vile creatures, and because I'm not naive enough to think otherwise, I cherish my right to keep and bear arms because it is the final safeguard against tyranny.

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    Re: Is Europe "freer" that America or just as "free"?

    That's nice for the despicable, but what about the normal person?
    Don't work out, work in.

    Never eat anything that's served in a bucket.

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    Re: Is Europe "freer" that America or just as "free"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Are you one of those naive people who trusts humans with concentrated power?
    Naw, I'm one of those humans who believes that the balances of power in my representative democracy make it the greatest on earth yet I throw it all away because I think there gonna come get me in the night so I have to buy a gun.

    Humans. The government is made up of humans. And humans are nasty, vile creatures, and because I'm not naive enough to think otherwise, I cherish my right to keep and bear arms because it is the final safeguard against tyranny.
    No... standard operating procedures that determine human action... no policies and bureaucratic culture that determine peoples course?

    Strange... being the philosophical being that I am... I am inclined to think that most people are actually quite alright. I find you a tad misanthropic.

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    Re: Is Europe "freer" that America or just as "free"?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    Naw, I'm one of those humans who believes that the balances of power in my representative democracy make it the greatest on earth yet I throw it all away because I think there gonna come get me in the night so I have to buy a gun.
    I don't even own a gun, chief. Contrary to what you might think, I don't sit around fitfully wringing my hands in fear of black helicopters and government agents. I'm just not naive enough to think it could never happen.

    No... standard operating procedures that determine human action... no policies and bureaucratic culture that determine peoples course?
    Is this supposed to be intelligible?

    Strange... being the philosophical being that I am... I am inclined to think that most people are actually quite alright. I find you a tad misanthropic.
    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror]Reign of Terror - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition]Inquisition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_nanking]Nanking Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_graves_in_the_Soviet_Union]Mass graves in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust]The Holocaust - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_crow]Jim Crow laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Darfur]War in Darfur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


    Plenty more where that came from...

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    Re: Is Europe "freer" that America or just as "free"?

    Me: No... standard operating procedures that determine human action... no policies and bureaucratic culture that determine peoples course?
    You: Is this supposed to be intelligible?
    If you dont get that you are somewhere far off from the intellectual realities implied by the argument we are having. See: Philosophy: "Agency"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agency_(philosophy)

    It applies to the actions of people in bureaucracies. You obviously don't know the means by which government and other agencies decide on and perform their actions.

    Plenty more where that came from...
    So you fear foreign invasion? Or a holocaust by your own government? You fear these things in modern times despite a trend of decreasing wars and atrocities? You fear these things are going to happen in America?

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    Re: Is Europe "freer" that America or just as "free"?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    What's ironic is that after Australia banned guns, violent crimes rose. AUSTRALIA: MORE VIOLENT CRIME DESPITE GUN BAN. Criminals can still get guns via the black market, law abiding citizens are denied their rights to defend themselves with a suitable weapon when guns are banned.
    As one who's usually found himself against (or simply apathetic to) pro-gun concerns, I've never found a suitable counterpoint to this simple argument.

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    Re: Is Europe "freer" that America or just as "free"?

    How about correlation is not causation?

    Still seemingly a strong point though.

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    Re: Is Europe "freer" that America or just as "free"?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post

    You're seriously calling them Religious minorities? Not... religiously insane? Attempting to prepare for an apocalypse because you believe you have been informed by a divine means is a right? Believing you're a new messiah is a right?
    I didn't say I agreed with anything they believed. I said what I meant. Just because their beliefs might have been despicable to the majority does not give the gov't license to perform military-style raids unnecessarily.



    So... this is about the government trying to come and kill you? You fear your own government trying to kill you enough that you actually invest money in an instrument of death and keep it in your home, because you fear they will come for you?

    Sorry if I'm coming off as too argumentative. But some of this is just insane.
    If you are trying to portray me as some insane paranoid who sits clutching his tin foil hat and AK47 waiting for the government goons to kick in his door... sorry. I'm a regular guy with a job and a family. I don't live in fear of much of anything.

    I'm simply aware that government must always be restrained and distrusted, and that the 2A is part of that. That was the position of our Founders...were they insane paranoids?

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    Re: Is Europe "freer" that America or just as "free"?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    If you dont get that you are somewhere far off from the intellectual realities implied by the argument we are having. See: Philosophy: "Agency"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agency_(philosophy)

    It applies to the actions of people in bureaucracies. You obviously don't know the means by which government and other agencies decide on and perform their actions.
    What the hell are you talking about? Individuals don't make decisions based upon some obscure philosophical construct. You aren't making a lick of sense.

    So you fear foreign invasion? Or a holocaust by your own government? You fear these things in modern times despite a trend of decreasing wars and atrocities? You fear these things are going to happen in America?


    You said, "I am inclined to think that most people are actually quite alright."

    I gave you evidence to the contrary. Do you deny the evidence?

    And, no, I do not fear these things. I just acknowledge that they are possible.

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