View Poll Results: Is the EU a freer, more open society in terms of rights and policies?

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  • Yes

    15 22.39%
  • No

    41 61.19%
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    11 16.42%
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Thread: Is Europe "freer" that America or just as "free"?

  1. #111
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    Re: Is Europe "freer" than America, or just as "free"?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    This is an interesting point. I know, through complete factual evidence, that America is one of the largest, most diverse, modern and strong economies on the planet that has ever been, and one of the freest and open societies in our history. The opposition by many EU supporters seems to be the argument that Europe, or at least the EU, could actually be the largest and most diverse economy in the world, with a better economic model, should the EU become a republic or a federal state structure in the future. They also claim EU politics is better, that there market economy is better and more stable, and regardless of how false or true these statements are, can they use the argument that the EU is a "freer", better place to live?
    If you look at the freedom indexes, all of them show that Europe and the USA are very comparable. Some EU countries even perform better, especially in the press freedom I think.

  2. #112
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    Re: Is Europe "freer" that America or just as "free"?

    Freedom and liberty are two different things.

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  3. #113
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    Re: Is Europe "freer" that America or just as "free"?

    The U.S. should learn from germany and make certain parts of the interstate only have an advisory speed limit. Getting pulled over in wyoming on I-80 or on I-25 in northern colo pisses me off to no end.

  4. #114
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    Re: Is Europe "freer" that America or just as "free"?

    Any place that has bans books, ideas and forms of free speech is not free. Regardless of what they have to say, the foundation of "freedom" is being allowed to express your ideas.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  5. #115
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    Re: Is Europe "freer" that America or just as "free"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Any place where the right to bear arms is so egregiously and consistently violated cannot be called "free", not by any stretch of the imagination.
    I understand Americans have a special relationship with their fire arms. That's a matter for them. I don't think many people in the EU see owning a gun as having anything to do with fundamental freedom. Guns for hunting and guns for sport seem innocuous enough to me provided they are properly stored and used. Hand guns and assault weapons are pretty much illegal in most EU states and I find that a comfort. I think that if you had a referendum on the subject, which is unlikely as no one seems to be remotely interested in the topic, you'd find that most Europeans would vote against the right to carry hand guns and assault weapons.

    This is no reflection whatsoever on what Americans choose to do, that's their business, but it's an area of quite clear cultural distinction between over here and over there.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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  6. #116
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    Re: Is Europe "freer" that America or just as "free"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Europe has more diversity than the US as far as freedom goes, so the question isn't really applicable. Some European nations have more freedom, some have less.
    Sorry if this is just slightly off-topic, but are there noticeable differences between states in the US? Over here we have an impression of California being Personal Freedom Central and places like Texas as being a bit like Iran but with hats and bibles rather than turbans and Qu'rans. (I'm joking BTW)

    But is there a big difference from state to state?
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

  7. #117
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    Re: Is Europe "freer" that America or just as "free"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I understand Americans have a special relationship with their fire arms. That's a matter for them. I don't think many people in the EU see owning a gun as having anything to do with fundamental freedom. Guns for hunting and guns for sport seem innocuous enough to me provided they are properly stored and used. Hand guns and assault weapons are pretty much illegal in most EU states and I find that a comfort. I think that if you had a referendum on the subject, which is unlikely as no one seems to be remotely interested in the topic, you'd find that most Europeans would vote against the right to carry hand guns and assault weapons.

    This is no reflection whatsoever on what Americans choose to do, that's their business, but it's an area of quite clear cultural distinction between over here and over there.
    Most people in America either think that the American idea of rights is the same as the Salvadorian idea of rights or the Bangladeshi idea of rights or they think that the rights we have do not apply to people in other countries. Because you know, all men being endowed with inalienable rights originally only meant, landowning, white men. But don't ever point out those facts to people who want us to live by the ideas of men who had very little interest in actual equality. The fact is that this country(America) has historically committed and endured more injustice, slavery and crimes against humanity as any other. But as long as we have the right to bear arms I guess we're all free. Somehow. I personally see the very real threat to free speech in Europe as a more serious offence than not being able to own guns. Do you?
    Last edited by Hatuey; 03-07-10 at 04:12 PM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  8. #118
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    Re: Is Europe "freer" that America or just as "free"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Really? Doesn't EU have a 48 hours max week? Limiting the maximum working week to 48 hours

    Doesn't France Have the 35 hours per week?
    35-hour workweek - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Most countries in Europe do have a limit on how many hours you are allowed to work, normally around 37.5-40. It's only UK where employees can choose to work as many hours as they want. Who are to decide how many hours I want to work? Not only is it a huge breach into our liberties, but it is completly economically unsound.
    No. These laws are put in place to protect the employee. They mean that the employer can not force a person to work for more than X hours a week. If the person wants to work more, that is up to them. Big ass difference. I have worked far more than the 37 hours a week that Danish law has on the books, but that was MY choice, not that of my employer.

    50-75% is given to the government. For instance France I would say is the most taxed country in EU.
    LOL no it aint. Far far from it.

    They have a payrol tax of 45%. They have a income tax from 0-48%. They also have GST of 19%. If we add these taxes togheter, an high income person will be taxed 77%. A low income person (less than 7000 dollar per year) would get 55% tax, and I haven't included wealth taxes, petrol taxes, TV-tax, Housing tax, and property taxes, which takes even more of your income. Welfare Lessons from France | Michael D. Tanner | Cato Institute: Daily Commentary
    CATO institute has a sad history of French bashing and twisting the truth.
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  9. #119
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    Re: Is Europe "freer" that America or just as "free"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I personally see the very real threat to free speech in Europe as a more serious offence than not being able to own guns. Do you?
    It depends what you mean by "the very real threat". Which particular threat are you referring to? The fact that EU legislation falls very far short of constraining member states to practice identical free speech laws means that on this matter at least, you can't talk about Europe in general.

    There have been a few examples of worrying cases of censorship. A magazine was closed temporarily and two journalists fined for publishing insulting cartoons of the Crown Prince of Spain and his wife. British libel laws become more anachronistic every day. Any legal recourse that is only available to the very wealthy is no recourse at all, in my book.

    What other concerns were you referring to?
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

  10. #120
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    Re: Is Europe "freer" that America or just as "free"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    It depends what you mean by "the very real threat". Which particular threat are you referring to? The fact that EU legislation falls very far short of constraining member states to practice identical free speech laws means that on this matter at least, you can't talk about Europe in general.
    Well we could start with their ban of books like Mein Kampf in the Netherlands, Austria - and the recent laws making it illegal to photograph public buildings in the UK. I must admit that this is how I read the implications of the law but I could be wrong. Also, the European stance on "hate speech" is quite ridiculous. Sending people to jail for speaking out against Muslim expansion or sending Muslims to jail for hate speech is quite worrying.

    There have been a few examples of worrying cases of censorship. A magazine was closed temporarily and two journalists fined for publishing insulting cartoons of the Crown Prince of Spain and his wife. British libel laws become more anachronistic every day. Any legal recourse that is only available to the very wealthy is no recourse at all, in my book.

    What other concerns were you referring to?
    I think this is my main one :

    Police protest over terror law ban on holiday snaps | News
    Tourists could face prosecution for taking holiday snaps of London's sights, police said today.

    The Metropolitan Police Federation has joined a protest against an anti-terror law making it a potential offence to photograph police guarding London's landmarks.


    More than 150 people protested outside New Scotland Yard today at the law which makes it an offence to publish or communicate information on members of the armed forces, intelligence services and police officers which is "likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism".

    Peter Smyth, chairman of the federation, said: "This is open to wide interpretation or, rather, misinterpretation.

    "How, for example, will it be expected to apply in practice to the 2012 Olympics, which will be both a photo-event par excellence and subject to an intense security operation?

    "Are going to be rounded up and arrested en masse for taking suspicious photos?"
    The UK is a leading member of the EU and my concern would be that some of the newer members will try to imitate the already draconian laws to be more accepted by the rest of the European continent.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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