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I have a "right" to...

I have a "right" to...

  • Total voters
    84
Goobieman said:
Your displeasure must have a basis.
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Yes, it's something I don't like. You're desperately trying to get me to say I have a right to things and you're not going to do it. I've already explicitly said that my displeasure has absolutely nothing to do with rights, I might not like the fact that my favorite restaurant ran out of prime rib, I don't think for a second that I had a right to have prime rib.

So stop trying to steer the debate and just deal with the reality of it.
 
Morality Games said:
You are not providing examples, just empty assertions. You have not demonstrated that political and legal freedoms as you envision them even exist in any non-nominal sense.



The term 'ensure' does not necessarily imply 100% effectiveness, only a relative and unfixed amount of certainty. It was clear from the context of my post that I did not mean it as such.



People who are protecting their homes and families from bandits because the government can't provide the necessary security detail aren't acting on their own behalf?
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this has no relevancy but you have 911 posts XD
 
Andalublue said:
Okay, that's one, "personal freedom", albeit a rather vague one. What are the other universal truths that have been recognised in all times?
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An inate yearning or desire for freedom is vague? Not to me.

You'll find a pretty good list of universal truths in Proverbs in the Old Testament. Such as dishonest scales displease the Lord and the borrower is servant to the lender.

From the Founders:
"No nation was ever ruined by trade, even seemingly the most disadvantageous."

"Were we directed from Washington when to sow, and when to reap, we should soon want bread."

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigues of supporting it."

"To be prepared for war, is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace."

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others."

"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."

From Shakespeare: (I had to do a 9th grade term paper on the universal truths contained in "Julius Caesar")

"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves"

"There is a tide in the affairs of men Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune"

"The evil that men do lives after them; The good is oft interred with their bones"
 
Cephus said:
Yes, it's something I don't like. You're desperately trying to get me to say I have a right to things and you're not going to do it.
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Only because you don't want to have to admit I'm right.
If you didn't know where I was going with the questions, you would have admitted it already.
 
I cant believe this thread is still cooking...

People have a right to...respond to all the good or bad crap that comes their way in either a healthy or unhealthy manner.

Thats pretty much it.

We have a pretty entitled (and unrealistic) sense of the meaning of the word 'rights'.
 
Morality Games said:
You are not providing examples
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This is absolutely false. I provided two, and I could provide 100 more.

Having a right and having the means to exercise that right are seperate concepts, the former having no necessary relationship to the latter.

The term 'ensure' does not necessarily imply 100% effectiveness
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No, it necessitates 100% effectiveness.

People who are protecting their homes and families from bandits because the government can't provide the necessary security detail aren't acting on their own behalf?
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That's not what possies do - they are raised by law enforcement to act wirh them in order to achieve a specific goal, and then disbanded - and so, your example doesnt support your claim.
 
AlbqOwl said:
An inate yearning or desire for freedom is vague? Not to me.

You'll find a pretty good list of universal truths in Proverbs in the Old Testament. Such as dishonest scales displease the Lord and the borrower is servant to the lender.

From the Founders:
"No nation was ever ruined by trade, even seemingly the most disadvantageous."

"Were we directed from Washington when to sow, and when to reap, we should soon want bread."

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigues of supporting it."

"To be prepared for war, is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace."

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others."

"To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, the guarantee to everyone the free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."

From Shakespeare: (I had to do a 9th grade term paper on the universal truths contained in "Julius Caesar")

"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves"

"There is a tide in the affairs of men Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune"

"The evil that men do lives after them; The good is oft interred with their bones"
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Well, it's certainly an extensive and considered list, and I thank you for taking the trouble to compile it. Genuinely. However, I think that several of your inclusions could be challenged for their truthfulness, perhaps not disproved, as I think such things are matters of opinion.

For example, the astrology lobby might challenge Shakespeare on the stars.
Or,"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others." Were that accepted as a universal truth, three quarters of all legislation would never have been drafted.

I would certainly take issue with,"To be prepared for war, is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace." As would every member of the pacifist movement.

One further point, quoting from only as far back as the 16th century rather does beg the question as to whether these things might have been held true throughout all human history.

I understand your general point, although I still think I disagree with it, but were it the case that there do indeed exist eternal and universal truths, I think they would be more general such as "killing another without reason is bad", but again, there may be those, however far from civilised society, who would challenge their universality.
 
Goobieman said:
Only because you don't want to have to admit I'm right.
If you didn't know where I was going with the questions, you would have admitted it already.
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Because you're not and I've told you time and time again that you're not. An honest person would acknowledge that they were wrong. When do you plan on starting?
 
Cephus said:
Because you're not and I've told you time and time again that you're not. An honest person would acknowledge that they were wrong. When do you plan on starting?
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When I am.
But, that's not now.
 
VanceMack said:
I cant believe this thread is still cooking...

People have a right to...respond to all the good or bad crap that comes their way in either a healthy or unhealthy manner.

Thats pretty much it.

We have a pretty entitled (and unrealistic) sense of the meaning of the word 'rights'.
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Everyone has rights. Not everyone is lucky enough to be able to excersise them though.
 
Iwa said:
Everyone has rights. Not everyone is lucky enough to be able to excersise them though.
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That sort of blows the concept of 'rights' right out of the water doesnt it.

You mistake 'rights' with 'should have' and 'gee wouldnt it be swell if...'
 
VanceMack said:
That sort of blows the concept of 'rights' right out of the water doesnt it.

You mistake 'rights' with 'should have' and 'gee wouldnt it be swell if...'
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nah, just think about my statement. EVERYONE has the right to do ANYTHING they want for ANY given reason, but only some people are privelaged enough in this screwed up little planet of ours to be able to say I have the 'right' to do this. Im 16 years old and i already realize how the world is run. The world is run by the bushwazee. anyone that doesnt have money, according to the world, Their opinion doesnt count. Its very sad how countries are run off of power, resources, military, and other needless things. If people could only realize there is so much more to life than being at the top, the world would be so much better. If only the rich and powerful could feel what its like to stand in line at a soup kitchen.. or go to a homeless shelter to get out from the biting winds of winter...or lose their power for a day because they couldnt pay the bill because they had to feed their family....If only they knew what some commoners felt when they look across the street at the mansion where they are drinking the best wine, and eating the best foods, whenmost people barely have enough to get by. This is a cruel sick world we live in. We just have to deal with it, theres not enough people that want to change it.... if there were we'd all be so much better off...but we live in a world that is all a sick joke.
 
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VanceMack said:
That sort of blows the concept of 'rights' right out of the water doesnt it.

You mistake 'rights' with 'should have' and 'gee wouldnt it be swell if...'
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Not at all. Everybody has an unalienable right to read and educate himself/herself, but not everybody exercises that right and some people on Earth still don't have opportunity to do so. Everybody has an unalienable right to pursue happiness in any manner that does not tread on the right of others; however, the seriously ill or disabled person may not have ability to take advantage of that right. It is still a right. Everybody has the right to express their opinions, but not everybody has opportunity for a bully pulipit from which to do that. Everybody has a right to become a gazillionaire, but not everybody will have the drive, stamina, ability, imagination, or ambition to do what has to be done to become that.

Unless somebody is standing in the way of us exercising our rights, the fact that we are unable to or don't want to take advantage of them does not remove them as rights.
 
Iwa said:
nah, just think about my statement. EVERYONE has the right to do ANYTHING they want for ANY given reason, but only some people are privelaged enough in this screwed up little planet of ours to be able to say I have the 'right' to do this. Im 16 years old and i already realize how the world is run. The world is run by the bushwazee. anyone that doesnt have money, according to the world, Their opinion doesnt count. Its very sad how countries are run off of power, resources, military, and other needless things. If people could only realize there is so much more to life than being at the top, the world would be so much better. If only the rich and powerful could feel what its like to stand in line at a soup kitchen.. or go to a homeless shelter to get out from the biting winds of winter...or lose their power for a day because they couldnt pay the bill because they had to feed their family....If only they knew what some commoners felt when they look across the street at the mansion where they are drinking the best wine, and eating the best foods, whenmost people barely have enough to get by. This is a cruel sick world we live in. We just have to deal with it, theres not enough people that want to change it.... if there were we'd all be so much better off...but we live in a world that is all a sick joke.
Click to expand...

Personally...I think the world is a wonderful place. Good...bad...tragic...happy...life simply IS. And you get to define the role you play in it. Frankly thats about as complicated as it gets.
 
AlbqOwl said:
Not at all. Everybody has an unalienable right to read and educate himself/herself, but not everybody exercises that right and some people on Earth still don't have opportunity to do so. Everybody has an unalienable right to pursue happiness in any manner that does not tread on the right of others; however, the seriously ill or disabled person may not have ability to take advantage of that right. It is still a right. Everybody has the right to express their opinions, but not everybody has opportunity for a bully pulipit from which to do that. Everybody has a right to become a gazillionaire, but not everybody will have the drive, stamina, ability, imagination, or ambition to do what has to be done to become that.

Unless somebody is standing in the way of us exercising our rights, the fact that we are unable to or don't want to take advantage of them does not remove them as rights.
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If you told people in Africa they had an 'unalienable right' to food, water, shelter, job, safety, and now the internet...they would look at you like you didnt possibly understand how the world really works...
 
VanceMack said:
Personally...I think the world is a wonderful place. Good...bad...tragic...happy...life simply IS. And you get to define the role you play in it. Frankly thats about as complicated as it gets.
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Thats the problem. is exactly that. people take life for granted and try their best and to some people their best isnt good enough. i would be one to know..im sure none of you here know what its like to be without a roof over your head...i for one thing do....its not fun. my mom kicked me out of the house for 2 weeks i had to fend for myself...until the police found me sleeping in a park under a slide. my mother was jailed and i live with my grandparents now in a small apartment.
 
Iwa said:
nah, just think about my statement. EVERYONE has the right to do ANYTHING they want for ANY given reason, but only some people are privelaged enough in this screwed up little planet of ours to be able to say I have the 'right' to do this. Im 16 years old and i already realize how the world is run. The world is run by the bushwazee. anyone that doesnt have money, according to the world, Their opinion doesnt count. Its very sad how countries are run off of power, resources, military, and other needless things. If people could only realize there is so much more to life than being at the top, the world would be so much better. If only the rich and powerful could feel what its like to stand in line at a soup kitchen.. or go to a homeless shelter to get out from the biting winds of winter...or lose their power for a day because they couldnt pay the bill because they had to feed their family....If only they knew what some commoners felt when they look across the street at the mansion where they are drinking the best wine, and eating the best foods, whenmost people barely have enough to get by. This is a cruel sick world we live in. We just have to deal with it, theres not enough people that want to change it.... if there were we'd all be so much better off...but we live in a world that is all a sick joke.
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that is amazing i...dont have words to descrie the way this post makes me feel..its just..wow.
 
Iwa said:
Thats the problem. is exactly that. people take life for granted and try their best and to some people their best isnt good enough. i would be one to know..im sure none of you here know what its like to be without a roof over your head...i for one thing do....its not fun. my mom kicked me out of the house for 2 weeks i had to fend for myself...until the police found me sleeping in a park under a slide. my mother was jailed and i live with my grandparents now in a small apartment.
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o_O you never told me that at school. OMG that is so horrible ...im sorry that happened to you ....
 
Iwa said:
Thats the problem. is exactly that. people take life for granted and try their best and to some people their best isnt good enough. i would be one to know..im sure none of you here know what its like to be without a roof over your head...i for one thing do....its not fun. my mom kicked me out of the house for 2 weeks i had to fend for myself...until the police found me sleeping in a park under a slide. my mother was jailed and i live with my grandparents now in a small apartment.
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Dont take for granted that some or even many havent experienced that and so much more. The question is what you DO about it...what you do with even those negative experiences. Your choices....thats ALL you really have the RIGHT to.
 
VanceMack said:
Dont take for granted that some or even many havent experienced that and so much more. The question is what you DO about it...what you do with even those negative experiences. Your choices....thats ALL you really have the RIGHT to.
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I know I am probably not going to change your mind but this world really is a sick place. But people with riches don't really give despair a second thought. If they did try other peoples shoes they wouldn't like it.
 
IMO you have a right to do anything that government won't stop you from doing.

I cannot stress this enough, you do not have the right to the wealth of others.
 
Iwa said:
I know I am probably not going to change your mind but this world really is a sick place. But people with riches don't really give despair a second thought. If they did try other peoples shoes they wouldn't like it.
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You might be the one that could use a little expansion of your horizons. I know MANY very wealthy people who VOLUNTARILY...not by the point of a sharp stick which the government weilds...donte not just money but significant time to the service of people. Our nation is a tremendous example of the generosity of the INDIVIDUAL. I think we are even MORE generous WITHOUT government involvement.

And I will try not to be derisive of you, but...Ive spent years in places a lot of people dont even read about. Ive seen things firsthand that would make a lot of people curl up a ball and cry. And in spite of the horror that exists there are still outstanding and shining examples of how powerful and positive some people can be. No...you wont change my mind at all. Some sick people? Sure. But the world in general...the world just exists. Its what people do in it. Which is why this ridiculous discussion about 'rights' is so foolish and naive.
 
Ethereal said:
Of the following, which do you feel is a "right", i.e., a moral claim on something?

Health care.
Food.
Water.
Other people's wealth.
A job.
A minimum or "living" wage.
None of the above.
Other.
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Other people's wealth?? What are we, Robin Hood?

Some of you are looking at it backwards... It's not about the individual's right to something...

It's about the American (and Christian) belief that we help those less fortunate. We are a compassionate nation and we've developed safety nets and pragmatic legislation (minimum wage) to protect the working classes and promote a better standard of living. Lessons learned from the abuses of the early factories and mine, and devastating poverty and crime of the great depression...

The way we go about doing this--how much government, how little, will always be debated. But, this notion that all public programs do nothing for the greater good is asinine...

There are abuses and inefficacy. There is waste. But every single day of you life, you benefit from a government sponsored program...
 
hazlnut said:
Other people's wealth?? What are we, Robin Hood?

Some of you are looking at it backwards... It's not about the individual's right to something...

It's about the American (and Christian) belief that we help those less fortunate. We are a compassionate nation and we've developed safety nets and pragmatic legislation (minimum wage) to protect the working classes and promote a better standard of living. Lessons learned from the abuses of the early factories and mine, and devastating poverty and crime of the great depression...

The way we go about doing this--how much government, how little, will always be debated. But, this notion that all public programs do nothing for the greater good is asinine...

There are abuses and inefficacy. There is waste. But every single day of you life, you benefit from a government sponsored program...
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I dont think we disagree...except maybe the source of those programs. I have said forever here that if the states want to institute health care...grand...good on them. But to trust a federal government that is so bloated it cant even get out of its own way to run this or ANY public program is asenine. Even IF they ran it efficiently (and they havent and wont) thats STILL a huge chunk of cash wasted at the federal level simply due to beauracracy.

Rights simply dont come into play, other than the governmental limitations put in place to create a foundation to secure American citizens 'rights'.
 
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