View Poll Results: I have a "right" to...

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  • Health care

    30 26.79%
  • Food

    35 31.25%
  • Water

    39 34.82%
  • Other people's wealth

    7 6.25%
  • A job

    17 15.18%
  • A minimum or "living" wage

    30 26.79%
  • None of the above

    61 54.46%
  • Other

    26 23.21%
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Thread: I have a "right" to...

  1. #281
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Yeah, ain't it a hoot, African Americans apparently have the "unalienable right" to be counted as 3/5 persons.
    Keep in mind that it was anti-slavery who fraught for and won the battle so that blacks would not be counted as whole people. If blacks were counted as whole people at the time, then the demographics such as they were would have given pro-slavery superior representation in Congress.

    The 3/5ths rule is a victory for blacks, not an example of how they were victimized.

  2. #282
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Keep in mind that it was anti-slavery who fraught for and won the battle so that blacks would not be counted as whole people. If blacks were counted as whole people at the time, then the demographics such as they were would have given pro-slavery superior representation in Congress.

    The 3/5ths rule is a victory for blacks, not an example of how they were victimized.
    I am always impressed with somebody who has actually studied and understands real history. Kudos.

    The problem we're having here is those who are focused on elements of our early American culture that did not implement the unalienable rights as the Founding Fathers defined them. They seem to be unable to separate examples of where the intentions were pure versus the areas in which humans, like all humans in all eras, had feet of clay.

    That a good idea is not fully implemented makes it no less of a good idea. And it really doesn't matter who thinks up a good idea either. It is still a good idea.

    The Founders did, however, give us all the foundation we needed to make unalienable rights recognizable, respected, revered, and wanted, and all the tools we needed to protect those rights even if we did have to evolve and iron out some wrinkles in order to get there.

    Now we are in serious danger of losing that vision. I hope there are still enough Americans who do understand it to defend the unalienable rights for which so much blood and treasure has been invested.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  3. #283
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post

    The problem we're having here is those who are focused on elements of our early American culture that did not implement the unalienable rights as the Founding Fathers defined them. They seem to be unable to separate examples of where the intentions were pure versus the areas in which humans, like all humans in all eras, had feet of clay.
    I see its a mix and match set up, pick and pay. Just pick the parts we like of what others made up to call inalienable rights. I guess that is why we didn't grant the same inalienable rights to African Americans or to the Japanese Americans. Convenient system of inalienable rights there!

    As Carlin said, "Bull****, its the glue that holds the world together!"
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  4. #284
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    I am always impressed with somebody who has actually studied and understands real history. Kudos.

    The problem we're having here is those who are focused on elements of our early American culture that did not implement the unalienable rights as the Founding Fathers defined them. They seem to be unable to separate examples of where the intentions were pure versus the areas in which humans, like all humans in all eras, had feet of clay.

    That a good idea is not fully implemented makes it no less of a good idea. And it really doesn't matter who thinks up a good idea either. It is still a good idea.

    The Founders did, however, give us all the foundation we needed to make unalienable rights recognizable, respected, revered, and wanted, and all the tools we needed to protect those rights even if we did have to evolve and iron out some wrinkles in order to get there.

    Now we are in serious danger of losing that vision. I hope there are still enough Americans who do understand it to defend the unalienable rights for which so much blood and treasure has been invested.
    Of course the Founding Fathers are in no way culpable for their acceptance of slavery as a de facto reality. They created something uniquely perfect. Apart from the slavery bit, which wasn't their fault.

    Jeez!
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  5. #285
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Of course the Founding Fathers are in no way culpable for their acceptance of slavery as a de facto reality. They created something uniquely perfect. Apart from the slavery bit, which wasn't their fault.

    Jeez!
    Of course they are culpable, but that was a part of their particular culture just as it was at the same time in Canada, Mexico, and on most of the Carribean islands and much of South America. Some were convinced that the black slaves were not fully human because that is what they had been taught. Some were not so convinced and refused to own slaves. It wasn't them however who hauled the slaves over here. That would be mostly the British. It wasn't the British who went into the jungles and bush to capture them and sell them into slavery. That would be their own countrymen and sometimes members of their own tribe.

    Does that make any of it right as we understand right and wrong? Of course not. But would we be any different than they if we had been born in their time? There is an excellent chance that we would not.

    If you are taught from birth that certain things are or are not true, and you have no way to verify them for yourself, you are likely to believe what is culturally ingrained into you.

    If any one of those Founders had been born into our culture or even the culture at the time of Abraham Lincoln, I am convinced that not one of them would have condoned slavery.

    It is not useful nor instructive to read our 21st Century sense of morality into Revolutionary times or Medieval Times or Roman Empire times or the ancient Biblical times or any other period of history. Each era has its own culture and sense of right, wrong, protocol, and what is and is not true. It is one among many important things all students of history must learn if they are to keep history in perspective.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  6. #286
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Of course they are culpable, but that was a part of their particular culture just as it was at the same time in Canada, Mexico, and on most of the Carribean islands and much of South America. Some were convinced that the black slaves were not fully human because that is what they had been taught. Some were not so convinced and refused to own slaves. It wasn't them however who hauled the slaves over here. That would be mostly the British. It wasn't the British who went into the jungles and bush to capture them and sell them into slavery. That would be their own countrymen and sometimes members of their own tribe.

    Does that make any of it right as we understand right and wrong? Of course not. But would we be any different than they if we had been born in their time? There is an excellent chance that we would not.

    If you are taught from birth that certain things are or are not true, and you have no way to verify them for yourself, you are likely to believe what is culturally ingrained into you.

    If any one of those Founders had been born into our culture or even the culture at the time of Abraham Lincoln, I am convinced that not one of them would have condoned slavery.

    It is not useful nor instructive to read our 21st Century sense of morality into Revolutionary times or Medieval Times or Roman Empire times or the ancient Biblical times or any other period of history. Each era has its own culture and sense of right, wrong, protocol, and what is and is not true. It is one among many important things all students of history must learn if they are to keep history in perspective.
    Excellent case for not taking the made up words of people from another era as inalienable rights. Great post!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  7. #287
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Excellent case for not taking the made up words of people from another era as inalienable rights. Great post!
    Well thanks for the compliment, but if that is what you interpreted my post to say, that's too bad. Because that isn't what I was saying.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  8. #288
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Well thanks for the compliment, but if that is what you interpreted my post to say, that's too bad. Because that isn't what I was saying.
    But it's what he wanted you to be saying.

    I also would like to say that it was a good post.

    However, are their any values/ideas which have been present in much if not all of history?

    I personally couldn't say, so I'm asking.
    Education.

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  9. #289
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    You WILL be able to -- if -you- supply the means.
    You have the freedom to do so.
    I cannot do virtually impossible things. The virtual impossibility prevents me in a way no agency can affect one way or the other.

    Not at all.
    That you do not have the physical capability to march in a political protest in no way means you do not have the political or legal freedom to march in said protest.

    That you do not have a church that youcan atend in no way means that you do not have the political or legal freedom to freely exercise your religion.

    et cetera...
    Regardless of the case, you can't possess any kind of freedom (politcal, legal, or otherwise) if something is virtually impossible. Freedom must include possibility to do so.


    Not just protection from banning, but infringement, period.
    Not sure how you think this applies to what I said.
    I thought we were discussing the nature of rights, as described in the U.S. Constitution.

    Only the right to bear arms can not be infringed. The capacity for habeas corpus in the U.S. Constitution implies rights (as described in the U.S. Constitution) can be infringed under certain conditions.

    You said "If the government was not able to provide my region with the security detail necessary to ensure the free exercise of my constitutional rights against non-compliants...".

    The government can NEVER supply so much security that 'non compliants' can NEVER act against you, which would b enecessary to "ensure" the free exercise of yoru rights.
    Perfection is incidental to the point. Basically, the government has to perform its duties with a limited amount of resources at its disposal; considerations of spatial distance and population are important when deciding how to effect its duties responsibly. If it supplies me with protection from non-compliants, I might still end up dead, but at least it was performing its duty to the utmost degree it could.

    Ths is absolutely unsupportable.
    The consitution specifies that it will provide for very few things, and the means for you to maintain your personal protection is not among them. It specifies that the government will 'ensure domestinc tranqulity', a statment was made in a specific context -- to end the sqaubbles amoing the states resulting from the inefficacy of the Articles of Confederation - not related to your argument in any way.
    If it was absolutely unsupportable, then it would be inconceivable that the U.S. government would ever distribute weapons among a civilian population; the existence of posses in the Old West (civilian law enforcement acting on legally sanctioned authority, sometimes supplied with equipment (horses or weapons) when their privately owned gear was insufficient) when the military was unable to protect a region from bandits demonstrates it is not absolutely unsupportable.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 03-07-10 at 07:17 PM.
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  10. #290
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    To sum up this entire argument: Freedom only goes as far as its allowed to. no more needs to be said.
    It's not rape if you scream "SURPRISE" first.

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