View Poll Results: I have a "right" to...

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  • Health care

    30 26.79%
  • Food

    35 31.25%
  • Water

    39 34.82%
  • Other people's wealth

    7 6.25%
  • A job

    17 15.18%
  • A minimum or "living" wage

    30 26.79%
  • None of the above

    61 54.46%
  • Other

    26 23.21%
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Thread: I have a "right" to...

  1. #271
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Dear Lord, I think we agree. Do we? Are you saying that claiming a right is a psychological reification of self? That it has nothing to do with universally accepted and applicable "inalienable" "rights"?

    I'm kind of scared at the idea we may agree on this.
    A "right" is an affirmation of something inalienable, i.e., individual sovereignty. Individual sovereignty is universal and arises from nature, more specifically, human nature. This is why "rights" are said to be natural and inalienable. I'm not sure if we agree or not, but that is my understanding of natural rights.

  2. #272
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    If 'natural rights' is a philosophical construct based upon human nature, then why was the US Constitution so unique a document? And why was that relatively small group of visionary post-Revolutionaries who hammered it out apparently the only ones in the world who had thought out the concepts and presume to put them into practice?

    Wouldn't 'human nature' span a much broader base?
    I believe the concept (self ownership, individual will) has existed throughout human history, the Founders were just the first ones to fully articulate it.

    Humans have always understood that objects fall towards the Earth, Newton was just the first person to describe the underlying mechanisms of "gravity".

    I will agree that it is ingrained in humankind to defend our own lives and to value freedom. And I suppose everybody dreams or hopes of things not yet achieved. No doubt the Founders recognized that and believed such traits are God given, i.e. 'natural rights'.
    I don't think all of the Founders saw rights as being "God"-given necessarily. Thomas Jefferson specifically left God out of the Declaration of Independence and instead opted for "Creator", which could mean almost anything, e.g., nature, the universe, your parents, etc. It could mean God, too.

    But it seems to me that it is more human nature to want an authority figure to lead, and the people who have none will clamor for a king. The idea of self governance seems to me to be a relatively unique concept, one that many Americans don't even understand or embrace. The Founders did understand it as well as what constituted an unalienable right.
    Humans do things out of perceived self-interest, whether it's clamoring for a king or writing the Declaration of Independence.

    P.S. - I wasn't saying you or Andalublue are making idiotic strawman arguments in my initial posting; I was referring to some other unsavory characters... = D
    Last edited by Ethereal; 03-06-10 at 02:53 AM.

  3. #273
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I believe the concept (self ownership, individual will) has existed throughout human history, the Founders were just the first ones to fully articulate it.

    Humans have always understood that objects fall towards the Earth, Newton was just the first person to describe the underlying mechanisms of "gravity".

    I don't think all of the Founders saw rights as being "God"-given necessarily. Thomas Jefferson specifically left God out of the Declaration of Independence and instead opted for "Creator", which could mean almost anything, e.g., nature, the universe, your parents, etc. It could mean God, too.

    Humans do things out of perceived self-interest, whether it's clamoring for a king or writing the Declaration of Independence.
    Of course humans do things out of self-interest. There isn't any other reason to do do things at all. There is even a degree of self-interest in being entirely selfless and/or unselfish and that's okay too. Our Founders focused on unalienable rights because they saw that as the key to putting together a society in which they most wanted to live. We are the beneficiaries of their self interest.

    But the most interesting thing contemplating that whole process and their motivations for doing it the way they did ultimately convinced me that the only 'natural rights' or "God given rights" or "unalienable rights" are those that require nothing from any others but their non interference.

    P.S. - I wasn't saying you or Andalublue are making idiotic strawman arguments in my initial posting; I was referring to some other unsavory characters... = D
    Oh I missed that. So I missed a chance to be offended? Darn.

    Anyhow, you've really made me think through what I did think about all this evening, and I thank you for that. I'm headed for my pillow and a good movie to put me to sleep.

    Good night friends.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  4. #274
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Which are...?
    Entirely irrelevant. I find it funny that you cut out the meat of the response, that just because I don't like something doesn't mean that I have a right to have it another way.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  5. #275
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Here is what the Constitution said about unalienable "rights" regarding slavery....
    I'm sorry...
    Its your preference that you should get to do what you want to do.
    And that creates a sound argument to that effect.... how?
    What makes you thnk that you should get to do what you want to do?

  6. #276
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Entirely irrelevant.
    On the contrary -- the basis for your argument is the entire point of the exercise.
    So, what are particular reasons you personally find valid?

  7. #277
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Of course humans do things out of self-interest. There isn't any other reason to do do things at all.
    Go talk to a fella named "Empirical Truth". He'll tell you that your motivation is happiness, both yours and for others. He'll then tell you that the only effective and legitimate means to achieve this is Communism.

  8. #278
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Go talk to a fella named "Empirical Truth". He'll tell you that your motivation is happiness, both yours and for others. He'll then tell you that the only effective and legitimate means to achieve this is Communism.
    I don't know E.T., but I have long strongly argued that communism, though a noble idea, cannot work among humankind and will not accomplish unfettered exercise of unalienable rights nor self governance as he probably envisions that it would accomplish.

    I believe that the closest to such an envisioned 'utopia' that humankind will ever accomplish is embodied in our own U.S. Constitution as it was originally intended plus the amendments necessary to correct the prejudicial inequities as we evolved to understand them to be.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  9. #279
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    On the contrary -- the basis for your argument is the entire point of the exercise.
    So, what are particular reasons you personally find valid?
    I already listed them. Displeasure. I don't think it can be argued narrower than that.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  10. #280
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    What makes you thnk that you should get to do what you want to do?
    I don't. What makes you think slaves being considered 3/5 persons is an inalienable right?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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