View Poll Results: I have a "right" to...

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  • Health care

    30 26.79%
  • Food

    35 31.25%
  • Water

    39 34.82%
  • Other people's wealth

    7 6.25%
  • A job

    17 15.18%
  • A minimum or "living" wage

    30 26.79%
  • None of the above

    61 54.46%
  • Other

    26 23.21%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: I have a "right" to...

  1. #221
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    In America, it would be wrong because we have determined that we have freedom of religion. In other countries, if they chose to do things differently, that's their business and I'd have no problem with them doing things differently.
    No disrespect, but I thnk you'd very much take exception to being forced to ahdere to the tenets of a religion that you dont want to adhere to, and this exception would exist regardless of where it happened.

    I am -positive- this is true for Catawaba.

    Why is that?
    Because you both believe that freedom of religion is an universal, inalienable right, and that being forced to adhere to a religion not of your choosing violates that right.

  2. #222
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No disrespect, but I thnk you'd very much take exception to being forced to ahdere to the tenets of a religion that you dont want to adhere to, and this exception would exist regardless of where it happened.

    I am -positive- this is true for Catawaba.

    Why is that?
    Because you both believe that freedom of religion is an universal, inalienable right, and that being forced to adhere to a religion not of your choosing violates that right.
    Sorry, but you'd be wrong. I just said that I do not believe for a second that freedom of religion is a universal, inalienable right and now you're telling me that I do? That particular right applies only within the society where it has been granted. In a society where it has not been granted, such as parts of the Middle East, you *DO NOT* have freedom of religion. They *CAN* ostracize you or kill you for practicing a religion that you are not, by law, allowed to practice. You might not like that, but it doesn't change the fact.

    The reality is, you're looking at reality through American-colored glasses, but there's a whole wide world out there that doesn't give a damn what American law, culture or society says.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #223
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Sorry, but you'd be wrong.
    So.... you're stating that if you found yourself forced to practice some religion not of your choice, you'd take no exception to it at all, you'd not complain, even to yourself, and you'd happily accept it.
    Right?

    The reality is, you're looking at reality through American-colored glasses, but there's a whole wide world out there that doesn't give a damn what American law, culture or society says.
    Reality is that -you- believe that you have rights and you will not be happy when they are violated, regardless of where or how.
    Thus, you DO buy into the idea of 'universal rights'.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 03-04-10 at 05:39 PM.

  4. #224
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    So the non-existent right to "health care" is inalienable, and some else's formerly inalienable right to life and property are now discarded if by doing so we can promote Messiahcare.
    When did I ever say health care was an inalienable right?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  5. #225
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No disrespect, but I thnk you'd very much take exception to being forced to ahdere to the tenets of a religion that you dont want to adhere to, and this exception would exist regardless of where it happened.

    I am -positive- this is true for Catawaba.

    Why is that?
    Because you both believe that freedom of religion is an universal, inalienable right, and that being forced to adhere to a religion not of your choosing violates that right.
    Well you would be wrong, because I do not believe freedom of religion is an universal, inalienable right.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  6. #226
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Sorry, but you'd be wrong. I just said that I do not believe for a second that freedom of religion is a universal, inalienable right and now you're telling me that I do? That particular right applies only within the society where it has been granted. In a society where it has not been granted, such as parts of the Middle East, you *DO NOT* have freedom of religion. They *CAN* ostracize you or kill you for practicing a religion that you are not, by law, allowed to practice. You might not like that, but it doesn't change the fact.

    The reality is, you're looking at reality through American-colored glasses, but there's a whole wide world out there that doesn't give a damn what American law, culture or society says.
    You're right. There are many places that do not recognize unalienable rights of any kind and almost without exception such places harbor the world's most viscious and greedy leadership and the world's poorest, most oppressed, depressed, repressed, and discouraged people.

    But we aren't talking about a 'right to free speech' in Nepal are we? We aren't talking about a right to the free exercise of religion or of the press in Iran are we? We aren't talking about the right to free market principles in some of Africa's most brutal regimes are we?

    We are talking about the unalienable rights afforded by the U.S. Constitution that has made Americans the most free, most optimistic, most productive, and most prosperous people the world has ever known and that produced a society as classless as any the world had ever known.

    And we are in danger of re-creating the oppressive and damning culture that the Constitution freed us from. A culture in which the government forces one group to serve another; a culture in which the government, not the Constitution, decrees what rights we will and will not have.

    Some of us don't want to re-create a society like that. We think our best hope is in fighting to live under guaranteed Constitutional freedoms as the Founders understood those freedoms. We don't WANT to be like anybody else.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  7. #227
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    You're right. There are many places that do not recognize unalienable rights of any kind and almost without exception such places harbor the world's most viscious and greedy leadership and the world's poorest, most oppressed, depressed, repressed, and discouraged people.

    But we aren't talking about a 'right to free speech' in Nepal are we? We aren't talking about a right to the free exercise of religion or of the press in Iran are we? We aren't talking about the right to free market principles in some of Africa's most brutal regimes are we?

    We are talking about the unalienable rights afforded by the U.S. Constitution that has made Americans the most free, most optimistic, most productive, and most prosperous people the world has ever known and that produced a society as classless as any the world had ever known.

    And we are in danger of re-creating the oppressive and damning culture that the Constitution freed us from. A culture in which the government forces one group to serve another; a culture in which the government, not the Constitution, decrees what rights we will and will not have.

    Some of us don't want to re-create a society like that. We think our best hope is in fighting to live under guaranteed Constitutional freedoms as the Founders understood those freedoms. We don't WANT to be like anybody else.
    Oh you are talking about the Constitution. I thought your were talking about some natural or god given rights, rather than just something we made up.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  8. #228
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Oh you are talking about the Constitution. I thought your were talking about some natural or god given rights, rather than just something we made up.
    But both the Declaration of Independence AND the U.S. Constitution were based upon the conviction of the Founders that there are unalienable rights that are God given and no human authority should have ability to infringe them. They were wresting their lives and destiny and that of a new nation away from an oppressive British authority who did not respect those unalienable rights. And many others do not respect them to this day.

    Given the incredible success of the United States of America when compared to any other nation that does not respect such rights, who can say they were wrong without looking like a complete idiot?

    “The sacred rights of mankind are not to be
    rummaged for, among old parchments, or musty
    records. They are written, as with a sun beam
    in the whole volume of human nature, by the
    hand of the divinity itself; and can never be
    erased or obscured by mortal power.”
    — Alexander Hamilton, 1775
    “The Declaration of Independence...[is the]
    declaratory charter of our rights, and of the
    rights of man.”
    — Thomas Jefferson, 1819

    The DECLARATION OF InDEPEnDeNCE
    Action of Second Continental Congress
    July 4, 1776

    The Unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

    When in the Course of human Events, it
    becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the
    Political Bands which have connected them with
    another, and to assume among the Powers of the
    Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the
    Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them,
    a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind
    requires that they should declare the causes which
    impel them to the Separation.

    We hold these Truths to be self-evident,
    that all Men are created equal, that they are
    endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
    Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and
    the pursuit of Happiness—That to secure these
    Rights, Governments are instituted among Men,
    deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the
    Governed, that whenever any Form of Government
    becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of
    the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute
    new Government, laying its Foundation on such
    Principles, and organizing its Powers in such
    Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect
    their Safety and Happiness. . . .
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  9. #229
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    But both the Declaration of Independence AND the U.S. Constitution were based upon the conviction of the Founders that there are unalienable rights that are God given and no human authority should have ability to infringe them. They were wresting their lives and destiny and that of a new nation away from an oppressive British authority who did not respect those unalienable rights. And many others do not respect them to this day.

    Given the incredible success of the United States of America when compared to any other nation that does not respect such rights, who can say they were wrong without looking like a complete idiot?
    I think most of the articles in our Constitution are pretty noble.....except maybe the part they had to amend to disallow slavery.

    It still doesn't negate the point that these are just rules we made up. Other places make up their own rules.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  10. #230
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I think most of the articles in our Constitution are pretty noble.....except maybe the part they had to amend to disallow slavery.

    It still doesn't negate the point that these are just rules we made up. Other places make up their own rules.
    Just rules we made up.

    That is really sad that you would think that.

    But hey, it's a free country. Our Constitution guarantees that.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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