View Poll Results: I have a "right" to...

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  • Health care

    30 26.79%
  • Food

    35 31.25%
  • Water

    39 34.82%
  • Other people's wealth

    7 6.25%
  • A job

    17 15.18%
  • A minimum or "living" wage

    30 26.79%
  • None of the above

    61 54.46%
  • Other

    26 23.21%
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Thread: I have a "right" to...

  1. #201
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No, it states that the freedom to do so exists.

    That some may or may not be able to do it, or that some can do it better than others, in no way changes the fact that the freedom to do so exists.

    Same thing with living.
    The freedom does not exist if there is no capacity. No amount of willing or doing enables one to achieve something if there is no capacity for that outcome in existence.

    If the capacity is lacking, then you know from the very beginning there is no freedom. It's when somebody realizes they lack the capacity to do something that they recognize they are not free; just as the Americans who realized they lacked the capacity to give input on American domestic policy in Parliament came to the conclusion they were not free for that reason.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 03-04-10 at 03:46 PM.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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  2. #202
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    The freedom does not exist if there is no capacity. No amount of willing or doing enables one to achieve something if there is no capacity for that outcome in existence.

    If the capacity is lacking, then you know from the very beginning there is no freedom.
    You seem to think the liberty to do someting is necessarily attached to the actual ability to do something. This is unsupportable, as having the freedom to do something in no way grauantees that you will be able to do it.

    You have the freedom to own a million acres of real estate on Maui You do not have the ability to do so. That you do not have the actual ability to own that much land on Maui in no way means you do not have the freedom.

    Of course, you also have the freedom to own whatever gun (or guns) you might choose to own -- do you believe that if you do not have the means to buy them, they should be provided to you?

  3. #203
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Iwa View Post
    well technically there are, sorry i have to disagree with you, but everyone has the right to anything they want to own, have, or acchieve, MOST people just arent lucky enough to acchieve their goals.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Funny thing is, you dont believe this.
    You'd be the first to scream like a stuck pig if someone tried to take your inalienable rights away.

    What inalienable rights? Who issues and enforces inalienable rights?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  4. #204
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    What inalienable rights? Who issues and enforces inalienable rights?
    What would you think of being forced by the state to attend a church of its choosing?

  5. #205
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    What inalienable rights? Who issues and enforces inalienable rights?
    nobody does. but those are rights upheld by yourself. if you hold onto those, noone can take them away, thats why the death penelty is a controversy, everyone has the right to LIFE liberty and the persuit of happiness.
    It's not rape if you scream "SURPRISE" first.

  6. #206
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Iwa View Post
    ... thats why the death penelty is a controversy, everyone has the right to LIFE liberty and the persuit of happiness.
    Except when removed by due process.

  7. #207
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Except when removed by due process.
    very true :P
    It's not rape if you scream "SURPRISE" first.

  8. #208
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    You seem to think the liberty to do someting is necessarily attached to the actual ability to do something. This is unsupportable, as having the freedom to do something in no way grauantees that you will be able to do it.
    You're emptying your sense of freedom to the point its becoming an empty notion. It's just the word 'freedom' now - it doesn't refer to, or mean anything.

    Anyway, 'able' has two interrelated senses, and you are confusing them. One refers to skills (like writing), specifically, the other to the minimum-maximum spectrum of being able to perform that skill (like writing a few sentences and writing a novel).

    As far as the government is concerned, it only has the obligation to provide me with the minimum capability to perform a right, and the only a certain set of rights; if it can do more economically, great, but that is not a condition of our 'agreement' (me, being a loyal, taxpaying citizen, them, being a good government).

    You have the freedom to own a million acres of real estate on Maui You do not have the ability to do so. That you do not have the actual ability to own that much land on Maui in no way means you do not have the freedom.
    I have the freedom to own property. Because it must secure that freedom for me, the government must ensure it to the utmost extent it can. However, its responsibility is very minimal; at its lowest, to make sure I have shelter during weather that puts me in mortal jeopardy (like a blizzard during winter) and nothing more than that. In this case, I don't actually own property, but the shelter the government provides for me simulates it well enough to get by; basically, it is compensation to ensure I remain loyal even though I don't have any possessions for the government to protect which would compel me to be loyal. If I didn't get that shelter, I would have to break into somebody else's home in order to live.

    I'm actually not free to own millions of acres of real estate on Maui or anywhere else because I lack the resources; however, that lack of freedom is not important to government, because its responsibility for my property extends only so far.

    Of course, you also have the freedom to own whatever gun (or guns) you might choose to own -- do you believe that if you do not have the means to buy them, they should be provided to you?
    Depends on the situation. If the government was not able to provide my region with the security detail necessary to ensure the free exercise of my constitutional rights against non-compliants (murderers, rapists, thieves, etc), because it was not economical (say I was too far way and there were too few people in my area) then I would probably require a gun in the absence of that infrastructure. If the government could not provide even that, then it is no government to me (and indeed, even if I transgress its laws, it has no power in the region with which to punish me). Buying me -- or rather, making sure I have --a gun would be the most minimal security provision it could make and still be my government.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 03-04-10 at 04:17 PM.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

    St. Benedict

  9. #209
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    You're emptying your sense of freedom to the point its becoming an empty notion. It's just the word 'freedom' now - it doesn't refer to, or mean anything.
    Sure it does.
    That you may never have the means to own a million acres of Maui in no way means your freedom to own eproperty is meaningless.

    Anyway, 'able' has two interrelated senses, and you are confusing them.
    No... YOU are confusing them.
    YOU take it to mean a physical capability, not a political or legal capacity as the term is used when related to "freedom" or "liberty".

    As far as the government is concerned, it only has the obligation to provide me with the minimum capability to perform a right
    On the contrary -- its complete obligation lies in protecting you exercise of your rights from those that would infringe upon them.

    The means for exercising those rights are up to you to provide.

    I have the freedom to own property. Because it must secure that freedom for me, the government must ensure it to the utmost extent I can.
    The protection of that right from others, yes, not that you will have the means to exercise said right.

    Depends on the situation. If the government was not able to provide my region with the security detail necessary to ensure the free exercise of my constitutional rights against non-compliants (murderers, rapists, thieves, etc), because it was not economical (say I was too far way and there were too few people in my area) then I would probably require a gun in the absence of that infrastructure.
    I'd argue that you require that gun regardless, as said security cannot ever exist.

    If the government could not provide even that, then it is no government to me (and indeed, even if I transgress its laws, it has no power in the region with which to punish me). Buying me -- or rather, making sure I have --a gun would be the most minimal security provision it could make and still be my government.
    No... the most minimal security provision it could make is to ensure that your right to that gun is not infringed upon. The means to obtain that gun are up to you.

  10. #210
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    What would you think of being forced by the state to attend a church of its choosing?
    What does that have to do with inalienable rights? That is determined by the law of the land, which we made up and can change!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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