View Poll Results: I have a "right" to...

Voters
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  • Health care

    30 26.79%
  • Food

    35 31.25%
  • Water

    39 34.82%
  • Other people's wealth

    7 6.25%
  • A job

    17 15.18%
  • A minimum or "living" wage

    30 26.79%
  • None of the above

    61 54.46%
  • Other

    26 23.21%
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Thread: I have a "right" to...

  1. #11
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Not on the individual level, but on the societal level yes.
    I don't see the difference. Ultimately, someone is being coerced into something; whether it's an individual or societal proxy doing the coercing is irrelevant.

    Should a doctor be allowed to deny care to someone in need based on income?
    Absolutely. The doctor is a free individual, which means said doctor has an actual right to discriminate in the dispensation of their goods and services.

    Should a starving person be denied food because they are too poor to afford it?
    Refusing to give someone my food does not mean I'm denying them food. Denying would imply that I'm actively interfering with their ability to obtain nourishment. That is not the case. For instance, am I denying a bum access to money when I refuse to give him my pocket change? Absolutely not. Money is still available to him, he simply needs to find a mutually beneficial means of acquiring it.

    Isn't there sanctity to life? Is someone's right to life and necessities dependent on their income?
    A person's right to life is not dependent upon anything; it is inalienable. That does not mean they have a right to nourishment or medical care, though. Those are totally different.

  2. #12
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    So, a person can force a doctor to care for them? A person can force another individual to give them food and water?

    Why do they have a right to initiate coercion against other people?
    Can we force the military to protect us?

    Can we coerce the police to fight crime?

    the answer to three of four questions (mine and Ethereal's) is yes (question #2 is because its necessary for society to function in a basic level. If everything is voluntary, we become Somolia.)

    This only applies if whatever person is employed by government and not by a private entity.

    When it comes to the fundamentals of health, having food and getting at least basic care is as important as not being shot or mugged.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 02-28-10 at 05:04 PM.

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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Define "right".
    A right is a moral or righteous claim on or to something.

    For instance, your life is something you have a moral or righteous claim to.
    Last edited by Ethereal; 02-28-10 at 05:04 PM.

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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Can we force the military to protect us?
    It's an all volunteer force.

    Can we coerce the police to fight crime?
    Actually, we can't. The Supreme Court has said government agents do not have a positive obligation to "serve and protect".

    the answer to three of four questions (mine and Ethereal's) is yes (question #2 is way too generalized to really answer effectively.)

    This only applies if whatever person is employed by government and not by a private entity.
    I'm not asking if we can, I'm asking if we should. It's a question of morality.

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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    It's an all volunteer force.
    And if we had socialized medicine, the VA, Medicaid, etc, those doctors are voluntarily employed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Actually, we can't. The Supreme Court has said government agents do not have a positive obligation to "serve and protect".
    That is truely frightening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I'm not asking if we can, I'm asking if we should. It's a question of morality.
    There are some moral absolutes that seem hard wired into our brain, but most of morality is in many ways an artificial construct, like society or money. It exists because we believe in it. So, if we generally agree that something is moral, than it is.

    If we want to go hard core socialism, hard core capitalism, something in between, or something else, if the majority think its right, than its right, at least for that society.

    Disclaimer: I am referring to economics systems here.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 02-28-10 at 05:13 PM.

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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    A right is a moral or righteous claim on or to something.

    For instance, your life is something you have a moral or righteous claim to.
    Hmm.. survival.

    Can someone own all the water and then refuse to sell you any?

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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    Hmm.. survival.

    Can someone own all the water and then refuse to sell you any?
    I suppose they could try. That's no guarantee that they'll be successful.

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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I suppose they could try. That's no guarantee that they'll be successful.
    What if they are and 90% of a population dies from thirst?

    I wish I could find an article on it, but during the robber-baron days, the only rail line to some city, Manhattan, I think, was cut off because of a trade dispute and a lot of people ended up getting injured because enough food and other supplies could not be imported before the dispute was over.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 02-28-10 at 05:14 PM.

  9. #19
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I don't see the difference. Ultimately, someone is being coerced into something; whether it's an individual or societal proxy doing the coercing is irrelevant.
    So should we not pay taxes? The government is coercing us to give up money. If the government and charities are paying for things then no one is being coerced. There is a difference between an individual taking food from another, and an individual receiving assistance from a group/government agency that exists to give that service to them.


    Absolutely. The doctor is a free individual, which means said doctor has an actual right to discriminate in the dispensation of their goods and services.
    Doctors would be paid by the government. It wouldn't be right to force them to provide a service and not be compensated for it. However, a doctor doesn't have the right to discriminate against the poor. What if someone can't work because they have a medical condition? Should we just let them die because their condition prevents them from working and their lack of income denies them healthcare?

    Refusing to give someone my food does not mean I'm denying them food. Denying would imply that I'm actively interfering with their ability to obtain nourishment. That is not the case. For instance, am I denying a bum access to money when I refuse to give him my pocket change? Absolutely not. Money is still available to him, he simply needs to find a mutually beneficial means of acquiring it.
    You would be denying them your food. That food belongs to you, not them. They don't have a right to your food, but they do have a right to food. They have a right to get food from a grocery store that should be paid for by the government or charities. Should we just let the poor starve?


    A person's right to life is not dependent upon anything; it is inalienable. That does not mean they have a right to nourishment or medical care, though. Those are totally different.
    How are they different? They are essential to life. To deny someone food and medical care would be actively ensuring their deaths, thus making those denying them necessities murderers. I am not saying individuals should give up what they have, but what I am saying is that the poor and needy have a right as US citizens and people living in a civil society to necessities paid for by their government and charities.

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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    And, pray tell, who is going to pay for this health care, food, and water? Why do you have a "right" to something you cannot pay for?
    Who says anyone will pay for it

    If I need food and or water, I am going to take food and or water.

    I wont particularly care either was given freely or taken by force, as long as I survive

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