View Poll Results: I have a "right" to...

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Thread: I have a "right" to...

  1. #151
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Yes, those are some of the basic tenets of 'Realism' in the context of international politics.

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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I don't think that rights between animals have any meaning. "Animal rights" only exist within human societies, they don't mean squat on the savannah.
    To determine meaning of such rights among animals, I would again reflect on the alpha male of a wolf pack: the purpose of his right, his authority, to claim the first quarter of any kill is to sustain him as the primary warrior and protector of the pack. For another wolf to deny the alpha the first quarter is to undermine the safety of the entire pack, and so all of the wolves agree to the alpha's right and mutually punish violators.

    We might say that this right is universal, because any wolf who meets the criteria will be afforded that right. However, modern notions of what constitutes "universal" tend to insist that a right must have no criteria at all, which in turn dissolves the right altogether, so such an argument is problematic.

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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    I'm not talking about "animal rights" lol. Maybe your joking? Take Jerry's examples posted above.

    for example: A territorial animal gains a 'right' to a particular territory or an animal in conflict for a mate wins the 'right' to the prize.
    I think those are good examples because they show how the successful use of force established authority to eat from a certain land or breed with a given mate.

    Authority is established through the aggressive use of force.

  4. #154
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I think those are good examples because they show how the successful use of force established authority to eat from a certain land or breed with a given mate.

    Authority is established through the aggressive use of force.
    And, as sociologists would claim, the state has a monopoly on the legitimate use of force.
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  5. #155
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
    And, as sociologists would claim, the state has a monopoly on the legitimate use of force.
    What do you imply by this?

  6. #156
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Human rights violation as defined by the UN charter...
    I wasn't invited to be on that Charter, when the boat sailed I still had my integrity. I'd no desire to be on the same boat as China, Somalia, and Libya as they sit on the UN Human Rights Commission.

    I guess I'll just have to use my own common sense to decide what constitutes a violation of human rights.

    Stealing guns is one of them.

  7. #157
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    To determine meaning of such rights among animals, I would again reflect on the alpha male of a wolf pack: the purpose of his right, his authority, to claim the first quarter of any kill is to sustain him as the primary warrior and protector of the pack. For another wolf to deny the alpha the first quarter is to undermine the safety of the entire pack, and so all of the wolves agree to the alpha's right and mutually punish violators.
    Except alpha males only remain alpha males so long as they are the strongest in the pack. Alpha males tend to change regularly because stronger, more fit males come along and challenge them and win. There is no "right" to be alpha male, the loser of a dominance battle can't say "hey, I have a right to that position even if I lose!" There is no right whatsoever, the victor simply has specific abilities while they hold the position and very few abilities when and if they lose the position.

    We might say that this right is universal, because any wolf who meets the criteria will be afforded that right. However, modern notions of what constitutes "universal" tend to insist that a right must have no criteria at all, which in turn dissolves the right altogether, so such an argument is problematic.
    How is that a right to begin with? It's like someone who starts a company and is, for all intents and purposes, the "alpha male", asserting that they have a right to control the company. That's all well and good until the board of directors tosses them out on their ass. People tend to confuse "right" and "ability" as if they are the same thing. They are not.
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  8. #158
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    I'm not talking about "animal rights" lol. Maybe your joking? Take Jerry's examples posted above.

    for example: A territorial animal gains a 'right' to a particular territory or an animal in conflict for a mate wins the 'right' to the prize.
    That's not a right, that's an ability. They are not the same thing.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    I think you're misinterpreting here. The animal acquires the right through its actions. Marking the territory is the ability, fighting off competitors is the ability. These abilities gain the right.

    Also, with the example of the alpha male, he is given a 'right' to the choicest part of the kill, a right he no longer has when he loses the ability to be the alpha male.

  10. #160
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Except alpha males only remain alpha males so long as they are the strongest in the pack.
    Yes, I agree. They have to qualify, meet the criteria of the right in order to recieve it. As soon as they don't qualify, they don't have the right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Alpha males tend to change regularly because stronger, more fit males come along and challenge them and win.
    That's a great proof of my point. Any wolf who meets the criteria is given the right. Wolves qualify and disqualify all the time, repeatedly demonstrating how my point is correct. No qualified wolf is ever denied the right. Every disqualified wolf is denied the right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    There is no "right" to be alpha male, the loser of a dominance battle can't say "hey, I have a right to that position even if I lose!"
    Here again, I agree completely. Winning the challenge is one of the criteria, so if you don't win, you don't fulfill the criteria and therefore do not have the right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    the victor simply has specific abilities while they hold the position and very few abilities when and if they lose the position.
    I couldn't have said it better myself. The victor holds the right while the looser does not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    How is that a right to begin with? It's like someone who starts a company and is, for all intents and purposes, the "alpha male", asserting that they have a right to control the company. That's all well and good until the board of directors tosses them out on their ass. People tend to confuse "right" and "ability" as if they are the same thing. They are not.
    There's nothing magical about a right where it will apply to you if you don't meet the criteria.
    Last edited by Jerry; 03-02-10 at 04:25 PM.

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