View Poll Results: I have a "right" to...

Voters
112. You may not vote on this poll
  • Health care

    30 26.79%
  • Food

    35 31.25%
  • Water

    39 34.82%
  • Other people's wealth

    7 6.25%
  • A job

    17 15.18%
  • A minimum or "living" wage

    30 26.79%
  • None of the above

    61 54.46%
  • Other

    26 23.21%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: I have a "right" to...

  1. #111
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    The problem is both sides do this.

    "Heath care isn't a right" is not an argument against Health Care being provided by the government...

    That said, it IS an argument against someone saying "Health care IS a right", a typical argument used by those trying to push for the government providing health care.
    I agree. I think it's important for people to understand what a right is, and that just because something isn't a right doesn't mean we can't use government to solve a problem.

    The facts are clear on healthcare. We pay more and have less access to healthcare than any other industrialized country. Isn't that insane? We pay MORE and have LESS access to healthcare. With a bit of government we can overall pay less money and have more access to healthcare. If you do it right, which is always the rub. But that's part of the argument; how to do it right. But instead we have "it's not a right" and other deflect statements meant to take the argument out of the realm of intellect and logic and into the realm of propaganda and sensationalism.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #112
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    That's problematic, sorry.
    It's ok big guy, don't cry, everything will be alright


    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    All you can demonstrate is that you have been allowed, in the past, to exercise certain rights.
    Right, exactly, that's all your challenge asked for, that's all I said I could demonstrate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    That doesn't guarantee that tomorrow, you will be able to do the same thing. At best, you can say you've *HAD* rights, not that you *HAVE* them.
    Well no I have them right now and I could prove it. Even if I don't have them in an hour, I have them as I make this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    That's really the point though, rights can and do change over time, meaning they are products of society, not ethereal things that float around out there that people have whether they want them or not.
    Oh I agree, perhaps more than you agree with yourself.

    Even if we look at Christianity's claim of universal rights, those rights exist within the Christian social construct. Christians claim that everyone has them because of a world view that everyone ultimately belongs to the same social construct under the same authority.

    Anyone outside that construct and not under that authority do not have those rights.

    "Universal rights" only exist because an authority says so, and they only apply to those who meet the criteria.

    If you meet the criteria for a right God says exists, then you get it regardless; meaning a right it won't be denied you arbitrarily. A right will be denied if you don't qualify or if it doesn't exist, but never just because God is having a bad hair day.
    Last edited by Jerry; 03-01-10 at 12:54 PM.

  3. #113
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    "Universal rights" only exist because an authority says so, and they only apply to those who meet the criteria.
    What is the authority for the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? What are the criteria?

  4. #114
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    What is the authority for the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? What are the criteria?
    I've never tried to itemize those criteria before. I'll have to give it some thought and get back to you.

    My starting place is that all rights are biological imperatives, which living obviously is one. Everything an organism does is to live. Liberty and pursuit of happiness would apply to complex social structure...I don't see how we could find those rights among earthworms...so I'm not sure.

    I think starting with the right to fight for whatever you want, and then create sub-rights defining what exactly it is that we want, is the best way to go. Those sub-rights would be human specific according to human needs for social structure and interaction, but would still ultimately serve human-specific biological imperatives.
    Last edited by Jerry; 03-01-10 at 01:01 PM.

  5. #115
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The facts are clear on healthcare. We pay more and have less access to healthcare than any other industrialized country. Isn't that insane? We pay MORE and have LESS access to healthcare. With a bit of government we can overall pay less money and have more access to healthcare. If you do it right, which is always the rub. But that's part of the argument; how to do it right. But instead we have "it's not a right" and other deflect statements meant to take the argument out of the realm of intellect and logic and into the realm of propaganda and sensationalism.
    I think you're arguing this fully from your side and giving no honest evaluation of the other side.

    For every person on the side against Government Healthcare that goes "Its not a right" there's someone on the other side whose using no other argument then "Every citizen has the right to health care"

    Both sides use the term to leave the realm of logic and intellect and enter the one of propoganda and sensationalism. Caching it as if its primarily one side is being blind to the reality of it.

    One side uses it as a reason to not have it, one side uses the opposite as a reason TO have it, and neither are less guilty than the other.

  6. #116
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Some do. (pay taxes) I guarantee you...many if not most don't.
    Do you have information telling you that most recipients of benefits are not taxpayers? Or are you talking about illegals because they tend to have their taxes removed from their checks and they pay taxes on all their purchases in the US.

  7. #117
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    People do not have rights to the work of others.

    Period.

    That's it.

    End of discussion.

  8. #118
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I think you're arguing this fully from your side and giving no honest evaluation of the other side.

    For every person on the side against Government Healthcare that goes "Its not a right" there's someone on the other side whose using no other argument then "Every citizen has the right to health care"

    Both sides use the term to leave the realm of logic and intellect and enter the one of propoganda and sensationalism. Caching it as if its primarily one side is being blind to the reality of it.

    One side uses it as a reason to not have it, one side uses the opposite as a reason TO have it, and neither are less guilty than the other.
    I'm not disagreeing with you. What I'm trying to say is that there is really a problem. There is a problem we could possibly solve with government. And to solve it with government, we need to have open and honest debate about possibilities, time scales, differing government actions, etc. Both sides do try to politicize and spread their own propaganda; and all of it is detrimental to actual debate. But in the end, we honestly do have a problem and we're gonna have to solve it at some point. That or keep paying way too much money for no access.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #119
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    People do not have rights to the work of others.

    Period.

    That's it.

    End of discussion.
    Im saying they pay taxes... you're jumping the gun.

  10. #120
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    Re: I have a "right" to...

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Doctors would be paid by the government. It wouldn't be right to force them to provide a service and not be compensated for it. However, a doctor doesn't have the right to discriminate against the poor. What if someone can't work because they have a medical condition? Should we just let them die because their condition prevents them from working and their lack of income denies them healthcare?
    Sure, why not?

    Generally speaking, if you're so concerned about the well being of the poor, you're perfectly free to spend you money for your cause, but you're not free to spend my money for your cause.

    You don't have a right to my money, you see. The poor don't have a right to my money, either.


    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    You would be denying them your food. That food belongs to you, not them. They don't have a right to your food, but they do have a right to food.
    And they have a right to get medical care, but they don't have the right to take my money to pay for it, and they don't have the right to demand services from the doctors and hospitals.

    You're kind of deliberately missing the point that nothing is free and "giving" something to someone requires "taking" it first from someone else.

    But then you want to say that the taking part is wrong.

    Well, the taking part is wrong, hence so is the unearned giving.

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