Were we better off before industrialization?

[phattonez]

You know, when everyone was peasants working subsistence level and people were tied to the land. Was this a better time?

 

[MKULTRABOY]

The only societies I could say were better of before industrialization were peaceable native peoples. I am not trying to imply that they all were.

 

[RightinNYC]

Someone at the 25th percentile of earnings today has a better life than someone at the richest 10% back in 1950 and a better life than someone at the richest 1% back in 1900.

 

[lizzie]

I think that's a great question, and I think it depends on what one considers "better"

My personal thoughts are that people were mentally, emotionally, and spiritually better off because they were more in touch with what living requires and how much they could actually do on their own. That being said, technology is great stuff, but I think it has moved us away from some very important things that we need to know in order to feel like productive and thoughtful human beings.
So, I guess my answer is yes and no.

 

[nerv14]

Someone at the 25th percentile of earnings today has a better life than someone at the richest 10% back in 1950 and a better life than someone at the richest 1% back in 1900.

true, but those people were normally happier back then.


Since I think happiness is what is important, I still think industrialization is better though. people live longer now so they have more time to enjoy life, there are more people that can be happy, and industrialization allows people to leave the Earth in the future to continue to exist.

yeah thats how i see it

 

[nerv14]

I think that's a great question, and I think it depends on what one considers "better"

My personal thoughts are that people were mentally, emotionally, and spiritually better off because they were more in touch with what living requires and how much they could actually do on their own. That being said, technology is great stuff, but I think it has moved us away from some very important things that we need to know in order to feel like productive and thoughtful human beings.
So, I guess my answer is yes and no.

Its a question of quality and quantity of life.

I think today, the total time that people live, times our positive experiences in life is greater then primitive people's positive experiences times their time to experience those things.

so we still are better off today, regardless of what rubric we use.

 

[MKULTRABOY]

Someone at the 25th percentile of earnings today has a better life than someone at the richest 10% back in 1950 and a better life than someone at the richest 1% back in 1900.

Examples?

 

[RightinNYC]

true, but those people were normally happier back then.

What are you basing that on?

Examples?

Think about the quality of life that was common back then. In 1900, even someone in the richest 1%:

-Lived to around 55
-Had primitive medicine
-Barely any electricity
-No radios or other sophisticated methods of communication
-No sophisticated methods of travel
-Incredibly limited access to information/knowledge

I'd much prefer to be at the 25th% today, where despite not being as rich comparatively, you:

-Live to around 75
-Have access to, at worst, basic modern medicine
-The internet/iphones/skype/etc.
-Planes/Cars
-Access to any information you want

 

[MKULTRABOY]

What are you basing that on?



Think about the quality of life that was common back then. In 1900, even someone in the richest 1%:

-Lived to around 55
-Had primitive medicine
-Barely any electricity
-No radios or other sophisticated methods of communication
-No sophisticated methods of travel
-Incredibly limited access to information/knowledge

I'd much prefer to be at the 25th% today, where despite not being as rich comparatively, you:

-Live to around 75
-Have access to, at worst, basic modern medicine
-The internet/iphones/skype/etc.
-Planes/Cars
-Access to any information you want

I find your analogy that more technology increases the quality of life to be superficial at best, honestly. If I were in the top 1% back in the day i would've had more man hours, labor, committed to my comfort, (though it takes less man hours nowadays for the same comforts yes) I would've had people to help me put my clothes on, to light and put my candles out on my chandeliers, I would've had access to the finest products man could produce back then. I wouldve loved to have people help me bathe to tell you the truth, quite a luxury. Access to knowledge... i would've attended the institutions at the pinnacle of mans knowledge and 1900 would've not been a dismal time, rich philosophy, an age of young science

I dont disagree completely but I disagree more than I agree.

Also there was a much larger amount of prestige in society being in the top 25% of society back then than compared to today. I mean, everyone else was pretty much an ignorant dirt mongering doofus. (IDk probably not)

Who is to say, without access to alot of literature on the subject but I disagree in an opinional manner towards your opinion.

 

[Orion]

It depends on what part of the world you're looking at, and what aspects. 1600's Europe was a cesspool, 1600's China was the most advanced society in the world.

I think industrialization has taken people farther away from the earth, from nature, from normal rhythms and stress thresholds, and from a sense of purpose to being here. Industrialization has brought destructive urbanization, more destructive wars via ever increasingly powerful weapons, increase in the speed of evolution of deadly diseases, challenges between autocracy and corporate oligarchy and civil liberties, unnatural resource demands on the planet, etc.

On the other hand, it has brought advancements in medicine, better understanding of social and cultural conditions, the need to be inclusive of all groups (i.e. the need to include women in domestic work in WWII was an important precursor to the feminist movement), a global understanding, better information systems, higher standards of living (although this is only in the Western world, everyone else still suffers terribly for our benefit), etc.

I think on the whole things are pretty balanced. When better things come, worse things seem to come to compensate. In any case, the current paradigm is temporary and non-sustainable. What comes next is largely up to us.

 

[nerv14]

What are you basing that on?



Think about the quality of life that was common back then. In 1900, even someone in the richest 1%:

-Lived to around 55
-Had primitive medicine
-Barely any electricity
-No radios or other sophisticated methods of communication
-No sophisticated methods of travel
-Incredibly limited access to information/knowledge

I'd much prefer to be at the 25th% today, where despite not being as rich comparatively, you:

-Live to around 75
-Have access to, at worst, basic modern medicine
-The internet/iphones/skype/etc.
-Planes/Cars
-Access to any information you want

From anything I have heard about how happy primitive people are, they are happier then people in industrialized nations today. I don't have a source about it though.

I can explain that though. In primitive societies people have very strong bonds with everyone around them, and families live close. Competition may increase productivity, but it makes people slightly less happier because of the stress. In primitive societies, if you have any problems, your tribe will always be there to help you out. Not to mention that strong culture and religion give answers and hope to people.


I am not saying that i want us to leave civilization, but a primitive person's average day is probably happier then the average person in any industrialized nation.

Civilization is better though, for the reasons I listed in my other posts, don't worry capitalism and economic growth is good. (for now)


and if you read my posts through, you would see that I agreed that a higher life expectancy allows people to live longer. However, living longer doesn't make your life any happier, but it makes life overall more worth living.

 

[nerv14]

Examples?

When it comes to standard of living he is completely right.

However, a tribal chief was most likely much happier then most industrialized people alive today.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

Is this really debatable?

 

[Skateguy]

Industrialization just happened to fast for us to get a good handle on it. We didn't know the long term harm much of it could, and did do. We cut down to much forest, to feed the machine. we over fished to many oceans, and poured to much poison down our drains. But we can still come to terms with it, If in are haste for a new power source, we don't "three mile Island" ourselves out of existence first. To be so smart, we sure forget the lessons of the past awfully quick.

 

[Orion]

When it comes to standard of living he is completely right.

However, a tribal chief was most likely much happier then most industrialized people alive today.

I can agree with this in many ways. Indigenous life lived off the land and had relatively few diseases that couldn't be treated. Most of the major diseases that the West has experienced over the past 500-600 years have been a result of urbanization... people living in close quarters en mass which allows diseases to transmit and mutant more readily.

The world's population keeps growing though, so I think it was only a matter of time before more clever means of survival had to be invented. Industrialization doesn't have to be a bad thing. It did accompany capitalism in this case though, and I think that those two together have been more destructive than industrialism alone.

 

[phattonez]

Industrialization just happened to fast for us to get a good handle on it. We didn't know the long term harm much of it could, and did do. We cut down to much forest, to feed the machine. we over fished to many oceans, and poured to much poison down our drains. But we can still come to terms with it, If in are haste for a new power source, we don't "three mile Island" ourselves out of existence first. To be so smart, we sure forget the lessons of the past awfully quick.

That's not possible in a free market economy. Only in an economy that does not price based on supply and demand will this happen. I should also mention that you need strong property rights.

 

[American]

You know, when everyone was peasants working subsistence level and people were tied to the land. Was this a better time?

Do you have a particular country or region and might you know what century your talking about?

 

[phattonez]

Do you have a particular country or region and might you know what century your talking about?

I was thinking of Britain during the 1600s and 1700s, but I also had an eye toward 3rd world nations today where we are speaking out against sweatshop labor and we only want "fair-trade" goods. I mean, what is the difference between what Britain did back then and what 3rd world countries are going through now?

 

[nerv14]

I was thinking of Britain during the 1600s and 1700s, but I also had an eye toward 3rd world nations today where we are speaking out against sweatshop labor and we only want "fair-trade" goods. I mean, what is the difference between what Britain did back then and what 3rd world countries are going through now?

yeah sweat shops are awesome (I am not being sacastic)

 

[NoJingoLingo]

I think it's a question that can't be simply answered with yes or no.

Do we live longer? Statistics indicate yes, but are we simply living longer with debilitating diseases? Probably. I have a long line of men and women in my family living well into their 80s and 90s before 1945.

Do we live easier? Perhaps but we also have an epidemic of obesity, diabetes, caner, autism, heart disease..

Did we really work harder in the preindustrial era? Farming is hard work but you only do it part of the year.

I think the best question asked is, are we happier?

So my answer is, I don't know.

 

[sazerac]

I've always felt lucky like we are alive during the greatest time to be alive on Earth. That we are at the pinacle of the best of times.

 

[NoJingoLingo]

I've always felt lucky like we are alive during the greatest time to be alive on Earth. That we are at the pinacle of the best of times.

Do you think people in America around 1788 felt the same way?

 

[phattonez]

Do you think people in America around 1788 felt the same way?

Not if they lived through the Revolution.

 

[phattonez]

yeah sweat shops are awesome (I am not being sacastic)

Glad to hear it. I think the same way. People agree to work there because it is better than the miserable poverty that they are coming from.

 

[NoJingoLingo]

Glad to hear it. I think the same way. People agree to work there because it is better than the miserable poverty that they are coming from.

That's an awesome position.

Sure, I know you are hungry and here is a whole loaf of bread. Oh, you can't have it, you can just have enough so that you don't die. Sure, you'll suffer, probably get sick and die but at least I'll get some work out of you first.

People are just animals so why treat them any different right? As long as you got lucky, **** everyone else!! WOOHOO!!!!