View Poll Results: Well, were we?

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Thread: Were we better off before industrialization?

  1. #71
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    I think more of them are working on the next viagra/penis enlargement/baldness cure/or some other way to make big money. I think more of them are working on drugs that don't cure but maintain so that they have you as an ATM for years.

    I think University researchers are basically the only ones working on the really important things.


    Trying to make a buck. You'd think we'd have figured that one out since we can look back at history and see how, if we could possibly live to be so old 100 years ago (assuming you didn't die from the plague or something similar).
    , you know nothing of research, so go back home and stop commenting on the subject. Have you ever even seen an article in a scientific journal? I seriously doubt it.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  2. #72
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Not if they lived through the Revolution.
    Why would you say that? I'm sure many Americans lived incredibly rich lives. I'm sure there was much hardship, but I think they had a better appreciation for life, family, and community because of it. They also had the comfort of religion and spiritualism. It wasn't all bad. "Progress" isn't always desirable.

  3. #73
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    That's an awesome position.

    Sure, I know you are hungry and here is a whole loaf of bread. Oh, you can't have it, you can just have enough so that you don't die. Sure, you'll suffer, probably get sick and die but at least I'll get some work out of you first.

    People are just animals so why treat them any different right? As long as you got lucky, **** everyone else!! WOOHOO!!!!
    Would you prefer they starve or became prostitutes?

  4. #74
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    Yes, I'm sure the common sweatshop wage usually illegal and based off of the lowest possible production price for a good out of no consideration for the living cost of the worker which has gone up as global food prices actually allows them to accumulate wealth.

    Sure...
    Yea, prostitution is much better than sewing stuff...

  5. #75
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Why would you say that? I'm sure many Americans lived incredibly rich lives. I'm sure there was much hardship, but I think they had a better appreciation for life, family, and community because of it. They also had the comfort of religion and spiritualism. It wasn't all bad. "Progress" isn't always desirable.
    It just seems to me like war is a terrible thing to live through. The fear, the death, the sabotage. It's too much evil.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  6. #76
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    I don't mind that. If you want to give to charity then that's fine, but don't force people to be charitable. That's nothing more than theft.
    Then this is a stickup by the democratic will of the people. Deal with it.

    It's not okay, in the twenty first century representative action in the past accounts for the living wage nowadays.
    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    You're trying to say that wages only rose because of government intervention.
    No, I'm not, your perception of what I am implying is seriously skewed. Wages rose for many reasons, but if it weren't for a raise in the federal min wage millions of americans would not have a living wage, even working all day. You would sacrifice such people to your market fundamentalist ideals.

    This is for ethereal too; amazingly, he's never heard of this:
    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_fundamentalism]Market fundamentalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    You know nothing of research, so go back home and stop commenting on the subject. Have you ever even seen an article in a scientific journal? I seriously doubt it.
    Can you even participate in scholarly discourse? From your posts so far I strongly doubt it.

    Yea, prostitution is much better than sewing stuff...
    Yeah sewing stuff and barely making enough to eat. I dont know what psychological strata you reside in, but you weren't able to gather from the context of the thread that they would be hypothetically choosing prostitution (though I don't know how you chose that subject) for lack of any choice besides abject poverty. But Im sure letting them starve to death is the humane thing.

    It just seems to me like war is a terrible thing to live through. The fear, the death... the sabotage!!!
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4PN7Xbexq4"]YouTube- BEASTIE BOYS - SABOTAGE - High Quality[/ame]
    Last edited by MKULTRABOY; 03-04-10 at 10:01 AM.

  7. #77
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    Then this is a stickup by the democratic will of the people. Deal with it.
    That's not the society that I want to live in.

    No, I'm not, your perception of what I am implying is seriously skewed. Wages rose for many reasons, but if it weren't for a raise in the federal min wage millions of americans would not have a living wage, even working all day. You would sacrifice such people to your market fundamentalist ideals.
    You really think that minimum wage gives people a living wage and helps them to work all day? Read here:

    Economics in One Lesson, The Lesson Applied, Minimum Wage Laws

    Can you even participate in scholarly discourse? From your posts so far I strongly doubt it.
    I simply couldn't stand him badmouthing research because it's the field that I hope to get into. I see the work that they kind of do and believe me, it's more than penis research.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  8. #78
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    I think more of them are working on the next viagra/penis enlargement/baldness cure/or some other way to make big money. I think more of them are working on drugs that don't cure but maintain so that they have you as an ATM for years.

    I think University researchers are basically the only ones working on the really important things.
    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    , you know nothing of research, so go back home and stop commenting on the subject. Have you ever even seen an article in a scientific journal? I seriously doubt it.
    You know, when YOU don't know what you're talking about, and you rofl at someone who does, it kinda makes you look, well.... dumb.

    Today's Big Pharma is FAR more interested in making a buck than it is in saving lives.

    Pushing Prescriptions: Drug Lobby Second to None

    WASHINGTON, July 7, 2005 — The pharmaceutical and health products industry has spent more than $800 million in federal lobbying and campaign donations at the federal and state levels in the past seven years, a Center for Public Integrity investigation has found. Its lobbying operation, on which it reports spending more than $675 million, is the biggest in the nation. No other industry has spent more money to sway public policy in that period. Its combined political outlays on lobbying and campaign contributions is topped only by the insurance industry.

    The drug industry's huge investments in Washington—though meager compared to the profits they make—have paid off handsomely, resulting in a series of favorable laws on Capitol Hill and tens of billions of dollars in additional profits. They have also fended off measures aimed at containing prices, like allowing importation of medicines from countries that cap prescription drug prices, which would have dented their profit margins. Pfizer, the world's largest drug company, made a profit of $11.3 billion last year, out of sales of $51 billion.

    Marketing Maladies

    Annually, the industry spends nearly twice as much on marketing as it spends on research and development, although drug companies report neither total precisely. Various news reports estimate that the industry spent anywhere between $30 billion to $60 billion on marketing in 2004. The trade group PhRMA estimates its members spent $39 billion on R&D that year. As this table shows, the same year, 11 major companies reported spending close to $100 billion on marketing, along with administrative expenses not categorized separately. Those companies reported spending $50 billion on R&D.

    In 2004, Pfizer spent almost $120 million for media ads for Lipitor, the world's number-one selling prescription drug, while companies promoting erectile dysfunction treatments Viagra, Levitra and Cialis spent $425 million. Direct to consumer advertisement has also grown significantly: from $791 million in 1996 to $3.8 billion in 2004.
    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    I simply couldn't stand him badmouthing research because it's the field that I hope to get into. I see the work that they kind of do and believe me, it's more than penis research.
    NJL isn't badmouthing research, you goof. She's badmouthing Big Pharma. If you're not able to figure that out, you're not ready for the field you are pursuing, and when your Big Pharma overlords tell you to research limp dick syndrome, you'll research limp dick syndrome.
    Last edited by Glinda; 03-04-10 at 12:45 PM.

  9. #79
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Quote Originally Posted by nerv14 View Post
    The elderly today are much healthier then the elderly in the past. Some of my grandparents are still very healthy, mentally and physically, and that would have been unheard of in the past.
    Unheard of? Seriously, people living in the pre-industrial era were much healthier and barring fatal diseases, lived just as long as people today. We have libraries full of examples. How old was John Adams when he died, or George Washington or Jefferson? There were fewer instances of physical ailments/damage to organs than we have in modern society. Sure, we've found the cure for some of those ancient diseases like small pox and TB but we've increased the occurrence of heart disease, diatetes, alzheimers, and mental illness. As I said we make nice pills to keep your illness at bay so you simply live longer with those ailments.

    There are ways to avoid many of the effects of aging, but those require effort on behalf of the person. Medical technology is not free of effort. But I admit that is more debatable.
    In general we work at less physical jobs and therefore get less exercise.

    But today many people live to become elderly when they would have died earlier in the past.
    True, but only if you would have died from a disease we've cured or can control. But the general populace doesn't live to be 100.

    Additionally, avoiding diseases and early death, is the same as increasing our lifespan any way you cut it though. Even contemporary diseases don't compare to the other diseases that have been elliminated.
    Like I said, our lifespan hasn't increased, people don't generally live longer than they used to, more people simply live longer. Semantically there is a difference.

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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Would you prefer they starve or became prostitutes?
    False choice.

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