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Thread: Were we better off before industrialization?

  1. #161
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    I don't get it; I'm anti-capitalist and even I agree that we're better off. How can anyone honestly believe that we're not? What is the argument? I have yet to see anyone post a coherent argument.
    it depends on what you class as better, you ask Australian Aboriginals, and they'll say it would've been better pre-industrialisation, however, if you go back in time in europe and ask a pre-industrialistion serf, or anyone of the lower classes, and youll get the opposite
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  2. #162
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    it depends on what you class as better, you ask Australian Aboriginals, and they'll say it would've been better pre-industrialisation, however, if you go back in time in europe and ask a pre-industrialistion serf, or anyone of the lower classes, and youll get the opposite
    Australian Aboriginals aren't part of this system so asking them is irrelevant.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

  3. #163
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    I don't get it; I'm anti-capitalist and even I agree that we're better off. How can anyone honestly believe that we're not? What is the argument? I have yet to see anyone post a coherent argument.
    One could argue that industrialism has destroyed our sense of community. I mean, being social was what you DID for entertainment back in the day. People were often in close touch with their extended family. Nowdays we're a very isolated society.
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

  4. #164
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    I don't get it; I'm anti-capitalist and even I agree that we're better off. How can anyone honestly believe that we're not? What is the argument? I have yet to see anyone post a coherent argument.
    Agreed entirely, for the record.
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  5. #165
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    hahahahaha
    So they just got rid of the law that says hospitals can deny necessary care? And even if you say that it's crappy compared to what rich people get, but I can assure you that it's a hell of a lot better than what even the middle class and rich got just 30 years ago or sooner.

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    Ok, we were talking about the 1900's, not 1500's.
    No, cars didn't really become common for the masses until the 1920s.

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    Of course they were in serious debt and generally always are. But compare the American working class of the 60's with that of today.
    They have higher wages, better medical care, better life expectency, and better entertainment. Things like food and medical care have gone up in cost, but that's mostly due to government involvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    We are freer than feudal serfs! And that's as good as it gets I suppose.
    Look at everything in your house. You own hundreds or thousands of things that didn't exist or were of much poorer quality just a few decades ago. You can be gay and be much more excepted by society, Black and not get beaten, or a woman and not be expected to stay home barefoot or pregnant. Your parents and grandparents might go on about how much better you are off now compared to them. It may have been annoying, but they're right. The choices that most of your ancestors had were probably work in a farm/factory or not much else.

    I
    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    work all day every day and produce hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of intellectual labor and scrape by on starvation wages that are just enough to pay off my student debt. Sometimes it feels a bit more parasitic than symbiotic to me. But that's just me.
    You agreed to it. You sound young, and if you make the right decisions and work hard, you'll probably get off of it. You apparently do well enough to have a computer if I'm not mistaken.

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    What does that even mean? A country does not "seize upon" the mode of production in a given epoch. Nor does a people. Depending on your material conditions, your class, and who your daddy is, you are either mowed down by it or doing the mowing. And it's a nice, convenient excuse for poverty and starvation that you can give for all those miserable colonies created by Capitalism: They didn't embrace Capitalism!!!
    The poverty that you speak of has a habit of shrinking rapidly and becoming far less severe in industrialied countries. Yes they did embrace market capitalism or got close to it. Britain, the US, Western Europe, and East Asia all massively increased their standard of living when they freed their economies from most government interference. By virtually every measurable statistic we are better off than are grandparents or their grandparents.

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    AH the Friedmanites and their gadgets! Your argument boils down again, as it always does for your ilk to this: It may SEEM like we are living miserable lives. It may SEEM like it's bad that you can't afford a house, that your kids can't afford to go to college, that you have to work 80 hours a week just to pay back your loans and that your debt is greater than the earnings you will make in your lifetime... BUT, check out my new i-phone!!!!!!!! Love my i-pod, but I'd give it back in an instant if we could get back the working class to levels of organization of recent past decades, which were no utopia but in which a man could work eight hours a day, buy (Not rent, not pay a mortgage for the rest of his life) a house and send his kids to good colleges on that single income.

    Than don't buy the i-phone. Don't pay for all those gadgets. Train more for that promotion. Also I wouldn't deny that things like vacuum cleaners, dishwashers, and indoor plumbing make life far more easy.
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  6. #166
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    [QUOTE=Khayembii Communique;1058626128]I don't get it; I'm anti-capitalist and even I agree that we're better off. How can anyone honestly believe that we're not? What is the argument? I have yet to see anyone post a coherent argument. >>

    I should think the fact that we're one day closer to running out of coal and oil should be enough of an argument. Geologist's predictions don't mean a thing because it's all underground and they can't see or accurately detect just how much is left.

    ricksfolly

  7. #167
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    I should think the fact that we're one day closer to running out of coal and oil should be enough of an argument. Geologist's predictions don't mean a thing because it's all underground and they can't see or accurately detect just how much is left.

    ricksfolly
    you have no idea how that works do you?

    there are many ways to detect what lays underground, and i am sure they use alot of them to determine these things
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  8. #168
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    I've figured out my answer.... I'm guessing 500+ years ago, we might not have been better off, but we were certainly happier most likely

    I realize in the 1400s and 1500s, Europe was terribly crowded and already had agriculture, but elsewhere people were happier
    Last edited by Aurora151989; 03-25-10 at 11:37 PM.

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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    I should think the fact that we're one day closer to running out of coal and oil should be enough of an argument. Geologist's predictions don't mean a thing because it's all underground and they can't see or accurately detect just how much is left.

    ricksfolly
    Before Industrialization we barely used these fuels. If we hadn't gone through industrialization, we wouldn't have use for these fuels and thus, lower levels of them wouldn't matter.

  10. #170
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Originally Posted by ricksfolly [View Post]
    I should think the fact that we're one day closer to running out of coal and oil should be enough of an argument. Geologist's predictions don't mean a thing because it's all underground and they can't see or accurately detect just how much is left.>>

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    you have no idea how that works do you?
    there are many ways to detect what lays underground, and i am sure they use alot of them to determine these things
    >>

    Other than seismographs, that only read high and low formations, and gas pressure indicators, I know of no others. If you know other ways, please let me know.

    ricksfollly

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