View Poll Results: Well, were we?

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Thread: Were we better off before industrialization?

  1. #151
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    By virtually every measurable statistic even poor people are often much better than average people 50 years ago. If you want to look at the sky or the constellations, fine, I like to do that as well sometimes; just leave me my Playstation.
    "Doubleplusungood"

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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    That's an awesome position.

    Sure, I know you are hungry and here is a whole loaf of bread. Oh, you can't have it, you can just have enough so that you don't die. Sure, you'll suffer, probably get sick and die but at least I'll get some work out of you first.

    People are just animals so why treat them any different right? As long as you got lucky, **** everyone else!! WOOHOO!!!!
    So would you suggest that maybe Africa is better?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    So would you suggest that maybe Africa is better?
    Better than what?

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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    By virtually every measurable statistic even poor people are often much better than average people 50 years ago. If you want to look at the sky or the constellations, fine, I like to do that as well sometimes; just leave me my Playstation.
    Are we better off physically and mentally? I don't thing so.

  5. #155
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    What are you basing that on?



    Think about the quality of life that was common back then. In 1900, even someone in the richest 1%:

    -Lived to around 55
    -Had primitive medicine
    -Barely any electricity
    -No radios or other sophisticated methods of communication
    -No sophisticated methods of travel
    -Incredibly limited access to information/knowledge

    I'd much prefer to be at the 25th% today, where despite not being as rich comparatively, you:

    -Live to around 75
    -Have access to, at worst, basic modern medicine
    -The internet/iphones/skype/etc.
    -Planes/Cars
    -Access to any information you want
    I dunno. Better to be Rockefeller or some modern American scraping by living paycheck to paycheck? Hard to say. For our good American lad, yes, there are far greater medical technologies in existence today, but they aren't available to him. There are far better methods of transportation, but he can't afford to use them, nor does he have any time off work to go anywhere or do anything.

    Rockefeller had access to the best transportation of his day and could go wherever he wanted. Rocky Had access to the best (albeit primitive) medical treatment of his day. Point of fact Rockefeller lived to be 97.

    Rocky didn't have to worry much about debt, the modern American does. Rockefeller owned an empire and had incredible political power. The modern American owns nothing but debt and (if we're still talking about the bottom 25% here) has no institutional political power whatsoever. Americans in the bottom 25% do not go where they want or do what they want to, but go where and do what they have to. Rockefeller was free to do what he pleased. It's a bit different as Rockefeller was high up in that 1%, but that is his circle of friends we're speaking of.

    Oh, and Iphones and Ipods and skype are swell, I love them as much as anyone, but they are feeble substitutes for the economic solvency and individual autonomy that we lack completely.

    All that being said, of course we are better off after industrialization. Capitalist industrialization eliminated any and all need of material want. There is no even marginally rational justification for hunger, poverty, death by curable disease, homelessness or inhumane working conditions left in the world. Industrial capitalism raised levels of production and technology to levels that could easily abolish all of these things. The problem of course is that the Rockefellers and Carnegies of our day continue to pursue accumulation of their own wealth even when it is the only remaining cause of these horrors. The problem is that this primitive accumulation has become not an aid to, but a hindrance to creativity, human freedom and indeed, even production in a meaningful sense.

    In spite of the hideousness of life under Capitalism today, there will come a day when people seize the means of production and begin to build a world free of starvation and the other idiocies described above. And it is no doubt industrialization that laid the seeds that made that possible.
    "We may have destroyed this country, but we got rich doing it!" --The GOP
    There is a special place in hell for those who care only about themselves.

  6. #156
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    [QUOTE=NoJingoLingo;1058596068]

    People are just animals so why treat them any different right? As long as you got lucky, **** everyone else!! WOOHOO!!!! >>

    True, but very few will admit it. I'd say the main differnce between men and apes is genes and luck. By chance, man produced a mutation. Much more survival luck, and here we are today. Apes didn't mutate..

    ricksfolly

  7. #157
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    Are we better off physically and mentally? I don't thing so.
    You can't show that I would have been better off mentally then. Those times had social disfunction as well. We all like to glorify the past and make it seem like a "simpler" time, but right now, by every measurable statistic (including free time) we are better off. As for fufillment, I can't really build a time machine to figure it out. If I want to find out that badly, I can become Amish.
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  8. #158
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    I dunno. Better to be Rockefeller or some modern American scraping by living paycheck to paycheck? Hard to say. For our good American lad, yes, there are far greater medical technologies in existence today, but they aren't available to him. There are far better methods of transportation, but he can't afford to use them, nor does he have any time off work to go anywhere or do anything.
    Even the poorest American has access to the most state of the art care if they need it

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    Rockefeller had access to the best transportation of his day and could go wherever he wanted. Rocky Had access to the best (albeit primitive) medical treatment of his day. Point of fact Rockefeller lived to be 97.
    And at best they had horse drawn carts. Today, most households have cars or access to public transportation.

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    Rocky didn't have to worry much about debt, the modern American does. Rockefeller owned an empire and had incredible political power. The modern American owns nothing but debt and (if we're still talking about the bottom 25% here) has no institutional political power whatsoever. Americans in the bottom 25% do not go where they want or do what they want to, but go where and do what they have to. Rockefeller was free to do what he pleased. It's a bit different as Rockefeller was high up in that 1%, but that is his circle of friends we're speaking of.
    Poor people weren't in serious debt before? That's what William Jennings Bryan based his campaign off of 1896!

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    Oh, and Iphones and Ipods and skype are swell, I love them as much as anyone, but they are feeble substitutes for the economic solvency and individual autonomy that we lack completely.
    Lack individual autonomy? We have far more choice economically and socially today than ever before.

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    All that being said, of course we are better off after industrialization. Capitalist industrialization eliminated any and all need of material want. There is no even marginally rational justification for hunger, poverty, death by curable disease, homelessness or inhumane working conditions left in the world. Industrial capitalism raised levels of production and technology to levels that could easily abolish all of these things. The problem of course is that the Rockefellers and Carnegies of our day continue to pursue accumulation of their own wealth even when it is the only remaining cause of these horrors. The problem is that this primitive accumulation has become not an aid to, but a hindrance to creativity, human freedom and indeed, even production in a meaningful sense.
    For the millionth time, the pie isn't fixed. Market Capitalism is based on mutually beneficial trade.

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    In spite of the hideousness of life under Capitalism today, there will come a day when people seize the means of production and begin to build a world free of starvation and the other idiocies described above. And it is no doubt industrialization that laid the seeds that made that possible.
    The countries that have seized upon this "hindrance" have experienced fantastic amounts of economic growth and rapidly risig living statndards for even the poor. The average poor person in the United States lives in conditions that are far from ideal, but the vast majority have color TVs, AC, Refrigerators, and a whole host of appliances that even the rich didn't have 100 years ago.

    Industrial progress, mechanical improvement, all of the great wonders of the modern era have meant little to the wealthy. The rich in ancient Greece would have benefited hardly at all from modern plumbing running servants replaced running water. Television and radio the patricians of Rome could enjoy the leading musicians and actors in their home, could have the leading artists as domestic retainers. Ready-to-wear clothing, supermarkets all these and many other modern developments would have added little to their life. They would have welcomed the improvements in transportation and in medicine, but for the rest, the great achievements of western capitalism have rebounded primarily to the benefit of the ordinary person. These achievements have made available to the masses conveniences and amenities that were previously the exclusive prerogative of the rich and powerful.

    Milton Friedman
    "Doubleplusungood"

    George Orwell

  9. #159
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    Even the poorest American has access to the most state of the art care if they need it
    hahahahaha
    And at best they had horse drawn carts. Today, most households have cars or access to public transportation.
    Ok, we were talking about the 1900's, not 1500's.
    Poor people weren't in serious debt before? That's what William Jennings Bryan based his campaign off of 1896!
    Of course they were in serious debt and generally always are. But compare the American working class of the 60's with that of today.
    Lack individual autonomy? We have far more choice economically and socially today than ever before.
    We are freer than feudal serfs! And that's as good as it gets I suppose.
    For the millionth time, the pie isn't fixed. Market Capitalism is based on mutually beneficial trade.
    I work all day every day and produce hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of intellectual labor and scrape by on starvation wages that are just enough to pay off my student debt. Sometimes it feels a bit more parasitic than symbiotic to me. But that's just me.
    The countries that have seized upon this "hindrance" have experienced fantastic amounts of economic growth and rapidly risig living statndards for even the poor.
    What does that even mean? A country does not "seize upon" the mode of production in a given epoch. Nor does a people. Depending on your material conditions, your class, and who your daddy is, you are either mowed down by it or doing the mowing. And it's a nice, convenient excuse for poverty and starvation that you can give for all those miserable colonies created by Capitalism: They didn't embrace Capitalism!!!
    The average poor person in the United States lives in conditions that are far from ideal, but the vast majority have color TVs, AC, Refrigerators, and a whole host of appliances that even the rich didn't have 100 years ago.
    AH the Friedmanites and their gadgets! Your argument boils down again, as it always does for your ilk to this: It may SEEM like we are living miserable lives. It may SEEM like it's bad that you can't afford a house, that your kids can't afford to go to college, that you have to work 80 hours a week just to pay back your loans and that your debt is greater than the earnings you will make in your lifetime... BUT, check out my new i-phone!!!!!!!! Love my i-pod, but I'd give it back in an instant if we could get back the working class to levels of organization of recent past decades, which were no utopia but in which a man could work eight hours a day, buy (Not rent, not pay a mortgage for the rest of his life) a house and send his kids to good colleges on that single income.
    "We may have destroyed this country, but we got rich doing it!" --The GOP
    There is a special place in hell for those who care only about themselves.

  10. #160
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    Re: Were we better off before industrialization?

    I don't get it; I'm anti-capitalist and even I agree that we're better off. How can anyone honestly believe that we're not? What is the argument? I have yet to see anyone post a coherent argument.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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