View Poll Results: Ethics in Government? Who's?

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  • Do you think ethics in government should be representative of the voters ethics?

    8 80.00%
  • Do you think government ethics should be different than the voters personal ethics?

    2 20.00%
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Thread: Ethics in Government, Should there be any? Who's should they be?

  1. #41
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    Re: Ethics in Government, Should there be any? Who's should they be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Yes, it means if any of your people are attacked, defensive action is justified.
    I mean different from how you would respond to a personal attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Both responses are contingent on the ethical determination as to whether there were an attempted strike.
    True. But as a national leader, you must consider such along with many other factors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Then we have no right to expect other governments to act ethically.
    I meant in the sense that only a few (if any) politicians are considered ethical these days, and politicians are the leaders of our government.
    But still, while your argument has a point, I think it is flawed.
    It could be used against you to say "If other entities (countries, in this case) do not act ethically towards us, then they have no right to expect us to act ethically towards them."
    Better, I think, to say that: "We expect ethics from everyone, and the failure of one party to act ethically does not excuse opponents of that party from our requirements for ethical behavior."

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    And that political pressure was an ethical response to unethical actions of the government (our representatives).
    Most likely, but that is beside the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Ethical considerations do not justify attack on one because of their ideals.
    Not in most cases, I would say. But what of the ethical stand for protecting the helpless? If we see people being harmed due to the ideals of those with power over them, do our ethics allow us to stand by and let them suffer?

    In the case of the Vietnam war, I believe that it was originally couched as a stand against communism, both on ethical grounds (communism is bad), and on the "threat" the expansion of communism posed to our country and the world.

    Hindsight shows that it would have collapsed anyway (probably, and that cracks the door on a whole other debate topic), but hindsight is not available to those who are being viewed through it.
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  2. #42
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    Re: Ethics in Government, Should there be any? Who's should they be?

    [quote=The Mark;1058577087]
    I mean different from how you would respond to a personal attack.
    There should be no ethical difference between personal ethics and the ethics of who you choose to represent you.


    I meant in the sense that only a few (if any) politicians are considered ethical these days, and politicians are the leaders of our government.
    But still, while your argument has a point, I think it is flawed.
    It could be used against you to say "If other entities (countries, in this case) do not act ethically towards us, then they have no right to expect us to act ethically towards them."
    Agreed, but by example neither of the countries we most recently waged war on acted unethically towards us.

    Better, I think, to say that: "We expect ethics from everyone, and the failure of one party to act ethically does not excuse opponents of that party from our requirements for ethical behavior."

    Agreed.

    But what of the ethical stand for protecting the helpless? If we see people being harmed due to the ideals of those with power over them, do our ethics allow us to stand by and let them suffer?
    Depends on whether we are helping people without ulterior motive on our part, and are not just taking sides in a civil dispute to our best advantage.

    In the case of the Vietnam war, I believe that it was originally couched as a stand against communism, both on ethical grounds (communism is bad), and on the "threat" the expansion of communism posed to our country and the world.
    Again, ethical consideration would not condone attacks on others due to a difference in ideals (democracy vs communism). As we know now from experience, the threat of expansionism is false reason to go to war, as it did not happen when we ended our war with Vietnam. In fact we have been trading partners with the "evil empire" now for decades.

    Hindsight shows that it would have collapsed anyway (probably, and that cracks the door on a whole other debate topic), but hindsight is not available to those who are being viewed through it.
    Learning from history to avoid future mistakes is completely available to us.
    Last edited by Catawba; 02-21-10 at 09:00 PM.
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  3. #43
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    Re: Ethics in Government, Should there be any? Who's should they be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    There should be no ethical difference between personal ethics and the ethics of who you choose to represent you.
    Correct.

    However, I was not arguing against that.

    I was arguing that the response, governed by ethics, of the national leaders we select, should be different on a personal level than on a national level.
    Or at least I would hope they consider national responses more carefully.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Agreed, but by example neither of the countries we most recently waged war on acted unethically towards us.
    That is true, dependent on how you define "acted unethically towards us".
    However, we are currently in a different type of conflict from a "war", and yet we are still "at war", in a way. Damn terrorists, adding more gray area to the puddle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Agreed.
    Excellent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Depends on whether we are helping people without ulterior motive on our part, and are not just taking sides in a civil dispute to our best advantage.
    Why can't it be both? If we help out people, and yet doing so is to our advantage, what is the harm in that?

    Now, if you were thinking of "helping" while actually "harming", that's obviously different.

    And, really, in a sane world, helping people should cause positive response from others, the desire for which could be considered by some to be an "ulterior motive".

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Again, ethical consideration would not condone attacks on others due to a difference in ideals (democracy vs. communism). As we know now from experience, the threat of expansionism is false reason to go to war, as it did not happen when we ended our war with Vietnam. In fact we have been trading partners with the "evil empire" now for decades.
    Which was my point.

    The arguments were proven wrong, but that doesn't mean no one believed them to be good arguments at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Learning from history to avoid future mistakes is completely available to us.
    Absolutely.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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    Re: Ethics in Government, Should there be any? Who's should they be?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    I was arguing that the response, governed by ethics, of the national leaders we select, should be different on a personal level than on a national level.
    They are our representatives, why should the ethics of those that represent us be different than our ethics.

    Why can't it be both? If we help out people, and yet doing so is to our advantage, what is the harm in that?
    If you ignored much worse behavior in the past when you were trading partners with a country, and only attacked when they kicked your companies out of their country, your motives would be ethically suspect, when you claimed it was due to altruistic reasons.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Ethics in Government, Should there be any? Who's should they be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    They are our representatives, why should the ethics of those that represent us be different than our ethics.
    That is not what I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    If you ignored much worse behavior in the past when you were trading partners with a country, and only attacked when they kicked your companies out of their country, your motives would be ethically suspect, when you claimed it was due to altruistic reasons.
    Obviously...
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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    Re: Ethics in Government, Should there be any? Who's should they be?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    That is not what I said.
    That's the way I interpreted it. What did you mean? Please clarify.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Ethics in Government, Should there be any? Who's should they be?

    I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Correct.

    However, I was not arguing against that.

    I was arguing that the response, governed by ethics, of the national leaders we select, should be different on a personal level than on a national level.
    Or at least I would hope they consider national responses more carefully.
    You responded:
    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    They are our representatives, why should the ethics of those that represent us be different than our ethics.
    I subsequently responded:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    That is not what I said.
    Your final response:
    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    That's the way I interpreted it. What did you mean? Please clarify.
    My meaning was that, when dealing with issues on the national/international level, the response should, in my book, be far more carefully gauged than if responding on a personal level.

    There are many other factors in play, and the consequences are far more varied.

    That is not to say that at the basic level, personal and national ethical standards should be different. That is the optimum state we strive for. But there will be cases where, if you apply your personal response reflex to a national/international issue, problems might occur.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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    Re: Ethics in Government, Should there be any? Who's should they be?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    .
    That is not to say that at the basic level, personal and national ethical standards should be different. That is the optimum state we strive for.
    Agreed.

    But there will be cases where, if you apply your personal response reflex to a national/international issue, problems might occur.
    I am not talking about applying a personal response reflex, I am talking about our elected representatives gauging ethical considerations by the same standards that we do, the people they are representing.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Ethics in Government, Should there be any? Who's should they be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I am not talking about applying a personal response reflex, I am talking about our elected representatives gauging ethical considerations by the same standards that we do, the people they are representing.
    Perfectly reasonable.

    What if they do so, and come up with a response you don't agree with?

    Are they wrong?

    How do you know they are wrong?
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    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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    Re: Ethics in Government, Should there be any? Who's should they be?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Perfectly reasonable.

    What if they do so, and come up with a response you don't agree with?
    Are they wrong?
    If the actions are ethical, I have no beef.

    How do you know they are wrong?
    When they are unethical.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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