View Poll Results: Was Reagan a fiscal-small government conservative?

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Thread: Was Reagan a fiscal/small government conservative?

  1. #71
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    Re: Was Reagan a fiscal/small government conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    For what? If spending for defence was greater than the inflation and the wage cost, then it will show in the government spending as a percentage of GDP, and it did. Spending went up from 6.2% in 1981 to 7.0% in 1983.
    Okay..I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

    However you don't use nominal spending, because it's not adjusted for wage growth or inflation.
    True, but when a particularly nominal explodes compared to other nominals, that, assuming there's no specific inflation issue in that area, is cause for concern.

    BTW: I didn't talk about a samle, when you talked about the elections. I was thinking about the actual election results. Then they don't judge the performance on the number of new voters you get, but they judge it by the percentage of voters you get.
    That's not entirely true. Performance in elections does address new voters or voters switching sides. Ask Bush Sr. He lost because of it.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Was Reagan a fiscal/small government conservative?

    Dumbass that came up with the trickle down theory that does not work. No he wanted big gov. how else was all that money suppose to sprinkle down?
    ~Following My Own Flow~

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    Re: Was Reagan a fiscal/small government conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kali View Post
    Dumbass that came up with the trickle down theory that does not work. No he wanted big gov. how else was all that money suppose to sprinkle down?
    Well, the problem with Trickle down (and here's where I lose most of you, especially many on the right), is that it ignores the marginal propensity to save and spend. The rich tend to have lower MPS then the poor. Thus, increasing their discretionary spending when they save more of that money isn't going to boost spending. Take welfare checks. Those get spent exceedingly quickly where as a cut from 25% on capital gains to 15% doesn't cause the rich to go out spend the difference. The rich save because they can. The poor spend because they are force to. If you want money to reach the economy quickly, put it in the hands of those with high marginal propensity to spend. This is primarily the reason why Bush's and Obama's tax cuts failed. People, at the time, had high marginal propensity to save (as the recession was starting). Giving people cash who turn around and deposit it in banks is pretty much epic fail in trying to boost consumer spending. Trickle down fails because it does not address MPS.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Was Reagan a fiscal/small government conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    In doing so, he created deficits instantaneously.
    Cutting income taxes has proven to create more money for the government in the long run, since the private sector economy will expand, creating jobs and expanding businesses, so there will be more taxpayers and more wealth out there; and the simple fact that the private sector funds the government, so whatever is done to help it, helps the government...in the long run.

    When Kennedy cut income taxes and when Reagan cut income taxes it grew the economy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    You missed the part where he raised government spending to go along with tax breaks to help push prices down.
    He wanted to cut a lot of spending, but there is this thing about 3 branches of government and all, and the legislative branch did not want to play. And as far as the military spending increases, they were very warranted at the time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Reagan was responsible for the tech revolution??? Hardly seems accurate. I do believe that those engineers @ IBM, Apple, Texas Instrument, Microsoft, Phillips, etc.... had far more to do with the tech revolution than did President Reagan. Don't get me wrong, i think he was a wonderful president, just not fiscally conservative.
    You should re-read what it said; he helped free up money to facilitate such great innovations and economic expansion.

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    Re: Was Reagan a fiscal/small government conservative?

    I do so love when liberals tell us what conservatism really is and what it really means, especially when some of those doing it are amongst the most hyper partsian "aquapub of the left" type of people.

    Fiscal Conservatism is not anarchism nor a government that gives nothing, does nothing. It believes the government has a few primary functions of which money most definitely should be spend, and the rest should be kept to a minimum. While the meaning and application behind “The General Welfare” is oft argued in regards to intent, there is no ifs, and’s, or buts that the Federal Government was meant to support defense.

    Some will deridingly say that “Fiscal Conservatism is just cutting spending in programs you don’t like”. It’s a childish simplification meant to insult and degrade rather than have any actual conversation. A more accurate attempt to still be belittling would be to say that Fiscal Conservatism is just cutting spending of parts of government you don’t believe is the purpose of government. THAT would be more accurate. Now, you can throw such an insult around if you want, but frankly it doesn’t bother me. I’ll flat out admit that’s what it is. Just because liberals are looking for a way to insult and tweak conservatives doesn’t mean I’m going to be insulted when they act like I should be embarrassed that my ideology is what it is, or when they attempt to exaggerate my ideology as if they’re some kind of expert on it, and they tend to do it laughably poor fashion.

    While there is still argument over whether the Cold War was truly a war, Reagan believed it was. And, adhering to conservative philosophy, set out to defend this country. The military spending mixed with pressure that reduced oil prices tanked the Soviet Unions economy setting the stage for the potential for actual legitimate arms agreement and peace talks between Gorbachev and Reagan, leading to the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of the Cold War.

    Liberals on this forum can caterwaul all they wish, telling us all how smart they REALLY are and how much better they know what conservatism really is than us (Sure, they say “we’re just going off what you say” but that’s bull****, the majority of people in this thread are going off the stereotype and caricature they have in their head that they then paint over anything anyone they disagree with says). Spending on military during times of War, which Reagan clearly believed the Cold War was, is not diametrically opposed to traditional modern Conservative ideology.

    One can also not discount the affects a congress has on a President. Civics 101 tells us all where spending is initiated, and its not on the desk of the President. Truman’s “The Buck Stops Here” is the most tired, over used, and lazy quote ever for people deciding to place blame squarely place blame on a President they don’t like (from either side) and take it off something else. One cannot look at Reagan, or Clinton, or even Bush’s spending without looking at the corresponding Congress and how it affected the situation.

    Was Reagan the perfect conservative? No. No one is. Just as there is no perfect liberal, no perfect Christian or Muslim, no perfect libertarian, no perfect Hobbesian, no perfect Sacrotic man, etc. Philosophies and Ideals are generally extremely rarely embodied 100% by ANYONE in any way. This is the difference between humanity and free will and theoretical philosophy. Reagan did make some missteps from traditional conservatism, he did make some compromises in the name of pragmatism, and he did make some complete missteps. But the over arching attempt on the left to describe him as anything from a Neo-Conservative to a flat out non-conservative Republican is a gross misrepresentation of his legacy, his politics, his philosophies, and even his acts.

    He was a solid conservative during a pseudo-war time, who was not a complete ideologue, was pragmatic at times in his approach, and occasional reached outside of the mold to do what he thought was right, all while trying to work with a Congress diametrically opposed to many of his views.

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    Re: Was Reagan a fiscal/small government conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Don't get me wrong, i think he was a wonderful president, just not fiscally conservative.
    You realize that:

    1. The world is not black and white
    2. The libertarian view of fiscal conservatism is the equivilent to the religion right's view on social conservative; it is generally on the more extreme scale of the conservative balance.

    Reagan was a fiscal conservative. He was not an extreme one, nor one that upheld every tennet of it, and not someone I would say should be a shining example for the pillar of Fiscal Conservatism as a pure philosophy. He was also essentially inbroiled in a war, which is where traditional modern conservative philosophy and modern libertarian conservative philosophy differ due to the libertarian view on War. He also was dealing with an extremely liberal congress, mind you the branch that initiates spending.

    However his tax policy, his decrease in non-defense spending, and other such things are conservative in principle. While this does not dismiss the portions where he broke with the philosophy, it is enough to say that calling him completely and utterly not a fiscal conservative is a bit ridiculous unless you live in a complete and utter black and white universe.

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    Re: Was Reagan a fiscal/small government conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I do so love when liberals tell us what conservatism really is and what it really means, especially when some of those doing it are amongst the most hyper partsian "aquapub of the left" type of people.

    Fiscal Conservatism is not anarchism nor a government that gives nothing, does nothing. It believes the government has a few primary functions of which money most definitely should be spend, and the rest should be kept to a minimum. While the meaning and application behind “The General Welfare” is oft argued in regards to intent, there is no ifs, and’s, or buts that the Federal Government was meant to support defense.

    Some will deridingly say that “Fiscal Conservatism is just cutting spending in programs you don’t like”. It’s a childish simplification meant to insult and degrade rather than have any actual conversation. A more accurate attempt to still be belittling would be to say that Fiscal Conservatism is just cutting spending of parts of government you don’t believe is the purpose of government. THAT would be more accurate. Now, you can throw such an insult around if you want, but frankly it doesn’t bother me. I’ll flat out admit that’s what it is. Just because liberals are looking for a way to insult and tweak conservatives doesn’t mean I’m going to be insulted when they act like I should be embarrassed that my ideology is what it is, or when they attempt to exaggerate my ideology as if they’re some kind of expert on it, and they tend to do it laughably poor fashion.

    While there is still argument over whether the Cold War was truly a war, Reagan believed it was. And, adhering to conservative philosophy, set out to defend this country. The military spending mixed with pressure that reduced oil prices tanked the Soviet Unions economy setting the stage for the potential for actual legitimate arms agreement and peace talks between Gorbachev and Reagan, leading to the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of the Cold War.

    Liberals on this forum can caterwaul all they wish, telling us all how smart they REALLY are and how much better they know what conservatism really is than us (Sure, they say “we’re just going off what you say” but that’s bull****, the majority of people in this thread are going off the stereotype and caricature they have in their head that they then paint over anything anyone they disagree with says). Spending on military during times of War, which Reagan clearly believed the Cold War was, is not diametrically opposed to traditional modern Conservative ideology.

    One can also not discount the affects a congress has on a President. Civics 101 tells us all where spending is initiated, and its not on the desk of the President. Truman’s “The Buck Stops Here” is the most tired, over used, and lazy quote ever for people deciding to place blame squarely place blame on a President they don’t like (from either side) and take it off something else. One cannot look at Reagan, or Clinton, or even Bush’s spending without looking at the corresponding Congress and how it affected the situation.

    Was Reagan the perfect conservative? No. No one is. Just as there is no perfect liberal, no perfect Christian or Muslim, no perfect libertarian, no perfect Hobbesian, no perfect Sacrotic man, etc. Philosophies and Ideals are generally extremely rarely embodied 100% by ANYONE in any way. This is the difference between humanity and free will and theoretical philosophy. Reagan did make some missteps from traditional conservatism, he did make some compromises in the name of pragmatism, and he did make some complete missteps. But the over arching attempt on the left to describe him as anything from a Neo-Conservative to a flat out non-conservative Republican is a gross misrepresentation of his legacy, his politics, his philosophies, and even his acts.

    He was a solid conservative during a pseudo-war time, who was not a complete ideologue, was pragmatic at times in his approach, and occasional reached outside of the mold to do what he thought was right, all while trying to work with a Congress diametrically opposed to many of his views.
    Well your defense of Reagan is emotional. Now if we could just get back to the facts.
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    Re: Was Reagan a fiscal/small government conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You realize that:

    1. The world is not black and white
    2. The libertarian view of fiscal conservatism is the equivilent to the religion right's view on social conservative; it is generally on the more extreme scale of the conservative balance.
    Fiscal conservatism is about living within ones means. I really believe the true notion has been forgotten.

    Reagan was a fiscal conservative. He was not an extreme one, nor one that upheld every tennet of it, and not someone I would say should be a shining example for the pillar of Fiscal Conservatism as a pure philosophy. He was also essentially inbroiled in a war, which is where traditional modern conservative philosophy and modern libertarian conservative philosophy differ due to the libertarian view on War.
    Since Reagan, the conservative view of "war" has changed inversely. Republicans have traditionally been the anti-war party. Reagan embraced what is known as "military Keynesianism" in which his increases in military spending (given the US is highly dependent on Department of Defense R&D) necessarily boosted demand in that particular sector. It created a multiplier effect and had an indirect subsidy on various aspects of innovation (primarily communication technology).

    Do i believe he did anything wrong? Not at all! But you cannot call such notions conservative unless you are willing to re-invent the term to mean something else.

    He also was dealing with an extremely liberal congress, mind you the branch that initiates spending.
    But entitlements were cut (along with a hike in FICA), which is where the deception arises. Following the Reagan administration, the view of conservatism morphed into "cutting taxes and embracing evangelical values). The entire expenditure side has been forgotten because deficits apparently do not matter. Unless of course they do not coincide with ones particular political beliefs.

    However his tax policy, his decrease in non-defense spending, and other such things are conservative in principle. While this does not dismiss the portions where he broke with the philosophy, it is enough to say that calling him completely and utterly not a fiscal conservative is a bit ridiculous unless you live in a complete and utter black and white universe.
    Let's make this very clear.... You cannot call yourself a fiscal conservative when you embrace a fiscal imbalance even during times of economic expansion. Following the recession, Reagan had the chance to embrace fiscal conservatism and blew it. It worked for Truman

    Now was the man a social conservative? Most definitely.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
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    Re: Was Reagan a fiscal/small government conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Well your defense of Reagan is emotional. Now if we could just get back to the facts.
    Emotionalism should suit you just fine, since that is what liberalism is (e.g., fairness, "for the children", "tax the rich", "baby killers"). I think the message was quite on target.
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    Re: Was Reagan a fiscal/small government conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Let's make this very clear.... You cannot call yourself a fiscal conservative when you embrace a fiscal imbalance even during times of economic expansion.
    First, let me make this clear. Unlike some of the more radical libertarians on this board I live in a world that is not black and white. One is not Fiscal Conservative or not based on a single check box and if its ticked or not determines if they are fiscal conservative or not fiscal conservative, as if "0%" and "100% is the only measurements present.

    Second, lets play with your premise. You're seemingly suggesting then that the entire definition of what modern conservatism is changed, or morphed, or perhaps we can say evolved with the introduction of Reagan onto the national stage. Lets take that premise....

    If that's the case, then what is the point of this thread? It seems to be aimed at trying to proclaim Reagan as something other than conservative, based on what people today claim conservatism is. That people are "reinventing" Reagan's legacy to fit into the moderm definition of conservatism. If what you say is true, that what is defined by the majority of conservatives in the modern day is essentially "Reagan Conservativism", then arguing that he is not a fiscal or governmental conservative by the modern definition seems completely asanine and is still incorrect.

    Not to mention that both ideologies today have significant variations of where they were 30 years ago, which had significant variations from where they were 30 years prior to that, and onwards.

    This all goes beyond the fact that I still think from your posts here and elsewhere that you take an extremely libertarian view of fiscal conservatism, ie an extreme take on it, and is much akin to the Religion Right telling people that someone isn't "social conservative" simply because they don't live up to the extreme that their version of the ideology holds for Social Conservatism.

    I'm an not in any way trying to suggest that Reagan was necessarily a great fiscal conservative by any definition, nor that he was a good one based on the classical definition. However I think it is a ridiculous notion to flat out state, unequivicolly, that he is not fiscally conservative in either the classical or the modern sense. A weak one? Perhaps? Maybe a moderate one. But to whole sale say he was not one just does not add up in any of the ways I can read it save for looking at it in a purely black and white world view, of which I think is a highly unrealistic and flawed way to view such things.

    Though thank you for the well thought out response and good discussion. I know that's a lot of ask for some on here.

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