View Poll Results: Was Reagan a fiscal-small government conservative?

Voters
98. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, Because...

    38 38.78%
  • No, Because...

    60 61.22%
Page 15 of 34 FirstFirst ... 5131415161725 ... LastLast
Results 141 to 150 of 337

Thread: Was Reagan a fiscal/small government conservative?

  1. #141
    Sage
    Conservative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    67,270

    Re: Was Reagan a fiscal/small government conservative?

    SouthernDemocrat;1058581138]He tripled the national debt while in office, thats not exactly "comparatively well".
    Ronald Reagan's request to lower taxes was initially rejected by the Democrat Congress. He took his message to the people and in August 1981 the Congress passed his 25% tax rate cut and implemented that over the next three years.

    The results are quite staggering as indicated by your website below in terms of revenue to the govt. That revenue growth came from job creation which according to the numbes approached 20 million new jobs created.

    Here are the historical numbers http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget...9/pdf/hist.pdf

    Now the question has to be asked, why do liberals fear the American people keeping more of their own money? Could it be that dependence on the govt. is reduced?

    In light of the revenue increase that is the only reason I can think of.

  2. #142
    Sage
    Lord Tammerlain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:56 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    10,432

    Re: Was Reagan a fiscal/small government conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    First, let me make this clear. Unlike some of the more radical libertarians on this board I live in a world that is not black and white. One is not Fiscal Conservative or not based on a single check box and if its ticked or not determines if they are fiscal conservative or not fiscal conservative, as if "0%" and "100% is the only measurements present.

    Second, lets play with your premise. You're seemingly suggesting then that the entire definition of what modern conservatism is changed, or morphed, or perhaps we can say evolved with the introduction of Reagan onto the national stage. Lets take that premise....

    If that's the case, then what is the point of this thread? It seems to be aimed at trying to proclaim Reagan as something other than conservative, based on what people today claim conservatism is. That people are "reinventing" Reagan's legacy to fit into the moderm definition of conservatism. If what you say is true, that what is defined by the majority of conservatives in the modern day is essentially "Reagan Conservativism", then arguing that he is not a fiscal or governmental conservative by the modern definition seems completely asanine and is still incorrect.

    Not to mention that both ideologies today have significant variations of where they were 30 years ago, which had significant variations from where they were 30 years prior to that, and onwards.

    This all goes beyond the fact that I still think from your posts here and elsewhere that you take an extremely libertarian view of fiscal conservatism, ie an extreme take on it, and is much akin to the Religion Right telling people that someone isn't "social conservative" simply because they don't live up to the extreme that their version of the ideology holds for Social Conservatism.

    I'm an not in any way trying to suggest that Reagan was necessarily a great fiscal conservative by any definition, nor that he was a good one based on the classical definition. However I think it is a ridiculous notion to flat out state, unequivicolly, that he is not fiscally conservative in either the classical or the modern sense. A weak one? Perhaps? Maybe a moderate one. But to whole sale say he was not one just does not add up in any of the ways I can read it save for looking at it in a purely black and white world view, of which I think is a highly unrealistic and flawed way to view such things.

    Though thank you for the well thought out response and good discussion. I know that's a lot of ask for some on here.

    Ronald Reagan was by no means a fiscal conservative.

    No fiscal conservative would run expanding deficits during good economic times, but would restrain spending to ensure that deficits would be decreasing on a dollar level. To be considered a moderate fiscal conservative decreasing the deficit on a GDP % would have to be achieved

    But deficits did not decrease on a dollar level during the Reagan admin, and the US went from being a creditor nation during his admin to being the worlds largest debtor nation. Reagan was a good salesman, a pitchman that has moved into popular culture of being a small government conservative, because of a few thing done early in his presidency, while all the later actions are forgetten.

    If one wants to see a fiscal conservative ( while not a small governent conservative) look at Paul Martin former PM of Canada.

  3. #143
    Sage
    Conservative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    67,270

    Re: Was Reagan a fiscal/small government conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Ronald Reagan was by no means a fiscal conservative.

    No fiscal conservative would run expanding deficits during good economic times, but would restrain spending to ensure that deficits would be decreasing on a dollar level. To be considered a moderate fiscal conservative decreasing the deficit on a GDP % would have to be achieved

    But deficits did not decrease on a dollar level during the Reagan admin, and the US went from being a creditor nation during his admin to being the worlds largest debtor nation. Reagan was a good salesman, a pitchman that has moved into popular culture of being a small government conservative, because of a few thing done early in his presidency, while all the later actions are forgetten.

    If one wants to see a fiscal conservative ( while not a small governent conservative) look at Paul Martin former PM of Canada.
    How old were you during the Reagan years? Anyone that calls those good economic times is out of touch with reality. It became good economic times about three years into the first term and his tax cuts almost doubled Govt. revenue.

    I am not sure you understand how our govt. works and who actually spends the money here. It is obvious to me that you have never done any research on Reagan nor do you understand what caused the debt you want to blame him for. Don't you think you should find out first?

  4. #144
    Sage
    Lord Tammerlain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:56 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    10,432

    Re: Was Reagan a fiscal/small government conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    How old were you during the Reagan years? Anyone that calls those good economic times is out of touch with reality. It became good economic times about three years into the first term and his tax cuts almost doubled Govt. revenue.

    I am not sure you understand how our govt. works and who actually spends the money here. It is obvious to me that you have never done any research on Reagan nor do you understand what caused the debt you want to blame him for. Don't you think you should find out first?
    He had the power of the VETO

    VETO's can help control spending

    Deficits increased in all years of the Reagan Admin, not just the first 3

    Never said the Reagan Admin had a revenue problem, just a spending problem

    It INCREASED SPENDING faster then the INCREASE in REVENUE.

    Now if you want to praise Reagan for the economy and increasing government revenue you also has to assign him the responsibility for government spending (ie bugdets and taxes)

    And the Reagan admin had a spending problem,

    Like a teenager with a credit card paid for by mommy and daddy. (or more correctly the teenagers childern)

  5. #145
    Sage
    Conservative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    67,270

    Re: Was Reagan a fiscal/small government conservative?

    [quote
    =Lord Tammerlain;1058581270]He had the power of the VETO

    VETO's can help control spending
    Ronald Reagan set a record for vetoes

    Deficits increased in all years of the Reagan Admin, not just the first 3

    Never said the Reagan Admin had a revenue problem, just a spending problem

    It INCREASED SPENDING faster then the INCREASE in REVENUE.
    In our govt. the Congress spends the money, not the President. Reagan generated the revenue and Congress spent it. There is a website for OMB given in one of these posts on this tread. Learn where the spending occurred.

    Now if you want to praise Reagan for the economy and increasing government revenue you also has to assign him the responsibility for government spending (ie bugdets and taxes)

    And the Reagan admin had a spending problem,

    Like a teenager with a credit card paid for by mommy and daddy. (or more correctly the teenagers childern)
    I praise Reagan for empowering the American people and creating an economy that generated almost 20 million jobs. Based upon the deficits of Carter, GHW Bush, Clinton, GW Bush and now Obama, Reagan was a fiscal conservative.

  6. #146
    Sage
    Lord Tammerlain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:56 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    10,432

    Re: Was Reagan a fiscal/small government conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    [quote

    Ronald Reagan set a record for vetoes



    In our govt. the Congress spends the money, not the President. Reagan generated the revenue and Congress spent it. There is a website for OMB given in one of these posts on this tread. Learn where the spending occurred.



    I praise Reagan for empowering the American people and creating an economy that generated almost 20 million jobs. Based upon the deficits of Carter, GHW Bush, Clinton, GW Bush and now Obama, Reagan was a fiscal conservative.
    So you give Reagan credit for tax cuts that have to be approved by Congress, and dont give congress any of that credit

    But for spending you blame congress despite almost all spending has to be approved by Reagan (unless veto proof)

    Sound logic you have

  7. #147
    Sage
    Conservative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    67,270

    Re: Was Reagan a fiscal/small government conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    So you give Reagan credit for tax cuts that have to be approved by Congress, and dont give congress any of that credit

    But for spending you blame congress despite almost all spending has to be approved by Reagan (unless veto proof)

    Sound logic you have
    Congress rejected the tax cuts until Reagan took his case to the American people. It was the American people that changed Congress, not the Representatives there.

    You still didn't tell me how old you are and what makes you an expert on Reagan or what he did. I posted a link to an analysis of the Reagan years. Suggest you read it

    Supply-Side Tax Cuts and the Truth about the Reagan Economic Record | William A. Niskanen and Stephen Moore | Cato Institute: Policy Analysis

  8. #148
    Sage
    Lord Tammerlain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:56 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    10,432

    Re: Was Reagan a fiscal/small government conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Congress rejected the tax cuts until Reagan took his case to the American people. It was the American people that changed Congress, not the Representatives there.

    You still didn't tell me how old you are and what makes you an expert on Reagan or what he did. I posted a link to an analysis of the Reagan years. Suggest you read it

    Supply-Side Tax Cuts and the Truth about the Reagan Economic Record | William A. Niskanen and Stephen Moore | Cato Institute: Policy Analysis
    It doesnt matter how old I am. I could be 70 or I could be 20

    I am not an expert on Reagan, but I have a very good understanding of economics, something I have followed since the Reagan admin. In fact during the Reagan Admin I thought his economic policies were pretty good.

    Then I got an understanding of finance and economic and how they both interact.

    For instance take a look at the following charts (which you have seen before)

    File:USDebt.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    For this discussion the second one is important as it takes into account the growth in the economy.

    Notice how federal government debt as % of GDP is generally flat or decreasing for the couple of decades preceding the Reagan years. That means the debt burden of the federal government did not increase all that much in relation to the economy. Overall during that time government spending was not all that stimulative to the economy. Now take a look at what happens at about 1982 on the chart. The debt as a % of GDP starts to expand from around 25% (poorly designed charts) to around 40%. This is an increase in the debt load of the federal government. Meaning the deficit as % of GDP was bigger then the GDP growth rate.

    Overall the Reagan admin was following Keynsian economics throughout its entire time in office. Government spending was being used to stimulate economic growth. That is a plan fact. Any government using borrowed money to stimulate the economy is not fiscally conservative, especially if it is doing it during good economic times ( last 5 years of the Reagan admin)

    The GWB admin followed pretty much the same economic policies with an even worse eventual outcome for the country. The RE bubble dwarfed the S&L crisis.

    Overall I got a far better understanding of economics, and did not let hero worship get in the way of a rational understanding what actually went on

  9. #149
    Sage
    Conservative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    67,270

    Re: Was Reagan a fiscal/small government conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    It doesnt matter how old I am. I could be 70 or I could be 20

    I am not an expert on Reagan, but I have a very good understanding of economics, something I have followed since the Reagan admin. In fact during the Reagan Admin I thought his economic policies were pretty good.

    Then I got an understanding of finance and economic and how they both interact.

    For instance take a look at the following charts (which you have seen before)

    File:USDebt.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    For this discussion the second one is important as it takes into account the growth in the economy.

    Notice how federal government debt as % of GDP is generally flat or decreasing for the couple of decades preceding the Reagan years. That means the debt burden of the federal government did not increase all that much in relation to the economy. Overall during that time government spending was not all that stimulative to the economy. Now take a look at what happens at about 1982 on the chart. The debt as a % of GDP starts to expand from around 25% (poorly designed charts) to around 40%. This is an increase in the debt load of the federal government. Meaning the deficit as % of GDP was bigger then the GDP growth rate.

    Overall the Reagan admin was following Keynsian economics throughout its entire time in office. Government spending was being used to stimulate economic growth. That is a plan fact. Any government using borrowed money to stimulate the economy is not fiscally conservative, especially if it is doing it during good economic times ( last 5 years of the Reagan admin)

    The GWB admin followed pretty much the same economic policies with an even worse eventual outcome for the country. The RE bubble dwarfed the S&L crisis.

    Overall I got a far better understanding of economics, and did not let hero worship get in the way of a rational understanding what actually went on
    it isn't hero worship, never has and never will be, but the reality is it was all about empowering people. You still haven't a clue as to how our govt. works in this country. Congress spends the money and although Reagan wanted the line item veto he wasn't given that line item veto. Congress attached spending bills to major pieces of legislation that Reagan needed to get the country out of the Carter induced malaise and economic disaster.

    This country had 20+% interest rates, double digit inflation and rising unemployment. It is easy to blame Reagan while ignoring what he actually inherited.

    What you want to ignore is the doubling of GDP, the doubling of Govt. revenue, and the creation of 20 million jobs. The increase in the debt at the time was a small price to pay for the empowerment of the American people and getting this country out of the Carter economic mess.

  10. #150
    Sage
    Lord Tammerlain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:56 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    10,432

    Re: Was Reagan a fiscal/small government conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    it isn't hero worship, never has and never will be, but the reality is it was all about empowering people. You still haven't a clue as to how our govt. works in this country. Congress spends the money and although Reagan wanted the line item veto he wasn't given that line item veto. Congress attached spending bills to major pieces of legislation that Reagan needed to get the country out of the Carter induced malaise and economic disaster.

    This country had 20+% interest rates, double digit inflation and rising unemployment. It is easy to blame Reagan while ignoring what he actually inherited.

    What you want to ignore is the doubling of GDP, the doubling of Govt. revenue, and the creation of 20 million jobs. The increase in the debt at the time was a small price to pay for the empowerment of the American people and getting this country out of the Carter economic mess.
    The 20% interest rates were brought in by Volker to take control over the inflation rate and did infact cause a severe recession early in the Reagan admin

    You just dont get it

    Your bull over empowering people can be used by Obama taking on debt saying it's justified to get the US out of the economic mess left by Bush.

    The Debt as a % of GDP accounts for the the doubling of the GDP It is the ratio of debt to the GDP which is why I used that reference rather then just federal government debt.

    As for government revenue you could triple it, or quintuple it, but if you increase spending even more you are increasing the debt. And in the case of most government leaving it for future generations to pay off.

    The Reagan admin was not fiscally conservative, it was Keynsian

Page 15 of 34 FirstFirst ... 5131415161725 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •