View Poll Results: Is Global Warming a myth?

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Thread: Is Global Warming a myth?

  1. #381
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    Re: Is Global Warming a myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I understand and agree with your explanation of the greenhouse effect. However, I disagree with the inferences you have made based upon that explanation. If you would like to provide some evidence to support those inferences then I welcome it.
    My evidence is the fact that you agree with my explanation. My explanation included a specific set of circumstances, and I can rely on those circumstances to prove when and where my explanation comes true. Basically, I do not need to really provide data, because my inferences are vague and ambiguous enough that it is true, and at the same time we could be at any point beyond the starting point of my explanation.

    Since we have been throwing paleocarbons into the atmosphere, we are undoubtedly affecting the environment. Considering we've had an increase of about 35 parts per million of CO2 in the atmosphere (link) I will safely assume that we have had some minor effect on the environment, somewhere in the world. This will increase the amount of evaporation, and then my explanation provides the rest of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    So, you admit the data is not clear at this time?
    After finding the source I provided, I'm sure we have started along the logic chain I outlined. I cannot say where we are along that chain, but it is irrefutable we are on it.
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  2. #382
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    Re: Is Global Warming a myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    Lets take a look at the facts, all this climategate stuff aside.
    Sounds like it should be an interesting endeavor.

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    Since 1900, we have been spewing out more and more CO2, correct?
    It would seem so.

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    Now, I fully agree, the amount of CO2 we've thrown out cannot substantially warm the Earth, but it can cause a very small amount of warming, globally.
    How does it do this? Who says it does this? How do they know this? What proof do they have of this?
    I personally don’t fully understand how this works (or perhaps at all).

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    We've also had our ozone layer depleted in certain areas, adding to the amount of energy that reaches the surface of the Earth.
    The [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone"]ozone[/ame] layer protects us from UV rays. Decreases in the layer in some areas would, indeed, seem to then cause increased amounts of UV rays. It would seem also to logically follow that an increase in UV rays, as they are a form of energy, would cause some increase in heat levels of the earth, at least to a small extent.
    But ozone is also a greenhouse gas. It would then seem to follow that depletion would result in lower temperatures.

    On an odd side note, all the Wiki articles I read on this bit seem to at some point link to IPCC reports or some such. IF, and I stress IF, there is some doubt as to the validity of the IPCC reports, then… Ah well.

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    As I've said before, the most dangerous greenhouse gas is water vapor.
    I would prefer “most effective”. “Dangerous” implies danger, bad, ect. And the greenhouse effect of greenhouse gases is not a bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    The amounts that naturally occur through evaporation allow enough heat to remain in the biosphere so life can be sustained.
    Precisely, water vapor and the other greenhouse gases are supposed to be there. The amounts, or more precisely the increase/decrease in said amounts, is the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    But, when we increase the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, as we obviously have, you increase the rate of evaporation very slightly.
    Assuming, of course, that CO2 has the effect you describe.

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    This in turn releases a tiny bit more water vapor then is the norm for our environment. Because of this, temperatures rise, because more energy is being trapped inside the biosphere. This in turn causes another small increase in evaporation, which forces another increase in temperature.
    I ask for some links to prove this, as I haven’t found anything regarding it, and it sounds interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    This is what's known as a positive feedback loop. It’s like a human who can't sweat when exercising. Your body keeps heating up, and heating up, and it can't get rid of the heat fast enough. The checks and balances of the environment cannot stop this process.
    I understand the positive feedback loop idea. What you haven’t yet proven is if it actually happens in the system (in this case, the atmosphere/climate) you are discussing.

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    What ends up happening, is over very long periods of time, temperature increases slowly, but surely. Given the length of time this takes, you could take any 40 year temperature interval, and you wouldn't find the slightest hint of temperature change. Regardless of what the data is saying, this is happening, because, quite frankly, the logic is too sound to be wrong.
    But how do you KNOW the logic is so sound it cannot possibly be wrong?
    What you are basically saying is, “it is this way because it is this way”.
    What if it isn’t?
    Hell, I hold the belief that anything is possible…Although not probable.
    Always question.
    Always wonder.

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    These changes won't happen fast enough for them to kill off humans, or to do anything major to effect our way of live. What will happen, however, is other animals won't be able to adapt, because natural selection cannot work at the same pace as the climate change.
    How do you know this? What proof do you have?
    This is another case of your stating “X will happen because of Y”, but without proving Y.

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    This is another problem many people don't understand. A short time for Earth means thousands and thousands of years. In relation to the time Earth has been around (4.6 billion years) humans have been around for maybe 10,000 years. So, for us, the climate change is going to take a very long time. But we have technology; we have adapted the Earth to fit our needs. Other animals, such as bears, and fish, can't change fast enough to match the pace of global warming.
    Your assumptions are as follows:
    1. That AGW/ACC (Anthropogenic Climate Change) is happening, and will result in a change major enough to cause the effect you state.
    2. That animals cannot adapt at the pace you assume the change will occur.
    3. That the change will be permanent.


    Assuming those things, your statement is logically sound.

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    Do you understand now? It is undoubtedly happening, but not very fast, and probably not fast enough to affect us for a long time to come. The recent snow storm on the East Coast proves this process is taking place, even as we discuss it.
    I understand your argument, partially.
    I don’t necessarily agree that “it is undoubtedly happening”. Nothing that exists (or doesn’t, as the case may be) is incapable of being doubted.
    I assume by referring to the recent snow storm you refer to the El Niño effect and it’s affect on the weather?
    I further assume that you are assuming climate change affects El Niño?
    I also assume that you are assuming ACC would then further affect El Niño?

    Again, assuming your assumptions are correct, then the logic makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    I personally don't know what we can really do about it though. We can try to decrease the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, but that wouldn't do very much, as it has already started the reaction. We can try to decrease the amount of water vapor, and return it to normal levels, but we would have to pour trillions of dollars into that, and keep water vapor at a steady level for decades to stop this. And even then, if we are even slightly off from the original number, the process will continue, or we might start an ice age because we removed too much water vapor.
    All those ideas MIGHT help, assuming there is a problem to begin with, and the earth can’t fix itself.
    Better, I think, to focus those funds on aggressively pursuing ever higher technology levels.
    We may find a solution, or that there wasn’t an issue to begin with. And keeping those scientists in the lab will keep em’ off the roads, producing CO2…

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    That's my take on things, but again, I might be wrong, but that would also mean my books are wrong, and their logic, and they seem pretty solid.
    But, you see, the recent events that everyone opposed to the AGW/ACC theory are excited about…If those events are as reported (by some), then the “facts” some of those books are based on might be faulty.

    I don’t really understand it all myself…but I think I have a basic grasp.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  3. #383
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    Re: Is Global Warming a myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    Then of course there is the simpler explanation.. you are just going all far fetched to desperatly attempt to save face when you cannot even get the date of the article right GOOD JOB!
    Nothing simpler that seeing fraud and saying fraud, I always say.

    Let's see...the EPA has put air monitoring stations to collect air samples beneath freeway over passes, because we all know the cleanest air is found there. This data is used to gauge a city's air quality.

    The EPA recently proclaimed that CO2 is a pollutant, and naturally all CO2 emitting objects are now under the regulatory thumb of the EPA.

    The EPA, being the incredibly intelligent genius level automovite engineers they are, sets completely arbitrary CAFE standards with no regard to their feasibility or effect on costs to the consumer.

    The EPA demanded MTLB(sp?) be put in the gasoline in western states....naturally, this stuff is extremely hygroscopic and thanks to the leaky underground fuel storage tanks it's contaminated many an aquifer in the western states. Oops.

    The EPA sets the silliest rules for fuel oxygenation, making it impossible for fuel suppliers to send reserves between states, because the different recipes aren't compatible with what the lovely EPA wants. So fuel prices soar. Of course.

    Insects are more important than farmers and commerce.

    Totally useless fish can justify closing the irrigation systems for thousand of farmers. You know, the people who, among others, paid for the dam. Not that the fish were going to go extinct of the water was used, but that was just the excuse to withhold the water. Not to mention that no one would have noticed if the fish vanished, anyway.

    The EPA is a totally out of control agency expanding it's power base.

    Not a good thing at all if you value freedom.

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    Rare lynx hairs found in forests exposed as hoax* Audrey Hudson THE WASHINGTON TIMES* Published 12 <-- there is your article despite me not finding it archived directly through The Washington Times.
    Ah.

    You can get off the couch when you want to.

    Now be careful. Walk first before you try running.

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    Yeah yeah, I know all the lefty government agencies are all interchangeable, same thing as the EPA right?
    The only non-lefty agencies are the DoD and the CIA and the FBI, and the last two are suspect.

  4. #384
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    Re: Is Global Warming a myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    My evidence is the fact that you agree with my explanation. My explanation included a specific set of circumstances, and I can rely on those circumstances to prove when and where my explanation comes true. Basically, I do not need to really provide data, because my inferences are vague and ambiguous enough that it is true, and at the same time we could be at any point beyond the starting point of my explanation.

    Since we have been throwing paleocarbons into the atmosphere, we are undoubtedly affecting the environment. Considering we've had an increase of about 35 parts per million of CO2 in the atmosphere (link) I will safely assume that we have had some minor effect on the environment, somewhere in the world. This will increase the amount of evaporation, and then my explanation provides the rest of it.

    After finding the source I provided, I'm sure we have started along the logic chain I outlined. I cannot say where we are along that chain, but it is irrefutable we are on it.
    So, the net effect of human CO2 emissions on global temperatures over the next hundred years could be anywhere between 0.00000000001 degrees and 10 degrees Fahrenheit? Or do you have some precise figures based upon sound modeling and data?
    Last edited by Ethereal; 02-15-10 at 11:57 PM.

  5. #385
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    Re: Is Global Warming a myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Yes, it's a very nice theory. One I've heard a million times already and understand perfectly. I'm just waiting for him (or anyone else) to provide some evidence that human CO2 emissions are having a measurable effect on this process. Since there is no credible evidence to support that inference, he just regurgitates AGW theory from his textbook and pretends he's proven something.

    Then give me a study which has proven human CO2 emissions are having a measurable impact on global climate and temperatures. One will suffice...
    There are no absolutes in science. You are asking for the impossible. There is however a preponderance of consensus in the scientific community throughout 180 countries.

    Given no absolute certainty requires us to weigh risks of action versus risk of no action.

    If we take action and despite the preponderance of consensus, it turns out the scientists were wrong, we have reduced our dependence on fossil fuels and are better able to deal with the future oil shock when it comes, and therefore are not hurt as badly economically.

    If we do nothing and the scientists were right, we make it harder on all future life on the planet, just to satisfy our short-term greed.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  6. #386
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    Re: Is Global Warming a myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptif219 View Post
    But which ones do they use the most? I would say when it comes to the environment the EPA would hold the IPCC in high standard.
    Thanks for your opinion!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  7. #387
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    Re: Is Global Warming a myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptif219 View Post
    Then why has the hurricane seasons in Florida been non-existent the last couple of years.

    2004 was the last major problems here.
    What part of climate change do you not understand?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  8. #388
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    Re: Is Global Warming a myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    There are no absolutes in science. You are asking for the impossible. There is however a preponderance of consensus in the scientific community throughout 180 countries.

    Given no absolute certainty requires us to weigh risks of action versus risk of no action.

    If we take action and despite the preponderance of consensus, it turns out the scientists were wrong, we have reduced our dependence on fossil fuels and are better able to deal with the future oil shock when it comes, and therefore are not hurt as badly economically.

    If we do nothing and the scientists were right, we make it harder on all future life on the planet, just to satisfy our short-term greed.
    Your alarmism does not scare me. Come back when you have some credible evidence to support your wild speculation.

  9. #389
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    Re: Is Global Warming a myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    There are no absolutes in science.
    Yes there are.

    The mean annual temperature of the globe either is, or it is not, increasing.

    If the science is so unclear that this simple fact cannot be determined absolutely, then there's no reason to destroy the economy of the United States in reaction.

    One should only react when an event to react to happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    There is however a preponderance of consensus in the scientific community throughout 180 countries.
    Completely irrelevant.

    Science isn't an election, it's a process.

    The science of Plate Tectonics was accepted by geologists at an international conference. There was one more "aye" than "nay".

    They guessed right.

    That doesn't mean all scientists guess right.

    Given the stench of fraud and plain bad science permeating the field of Global Warming Chicken Littlism, and it's clear that the one thing that needs doing is ...

    ...nothing.

    Nothing at all until the research is established and the facts are irrefutable.

    One of the irrefutable facts currently at hand is the fact that the world was distinctly warmer in the past....and lived.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Given no absolute certainty requires us to weigh risks of action versus risk of no action.
    The risks of "action" are destroyed economies.

    The risks of inaction are longer growing seasons, lower heating bills, and a Northwest Passage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    If we take action and despite the preponderance of consensus, it turns out the scientists were wrong, we have reduced our dependence on fossil fuels and are better able to deal with the future oil shock when it comes, and therefore are not hurt as badly economically.
    Except, of course, that shifting to socialist energy...er "green" energy, is costing money we can't afford. If some schmuck wants to put solar energy panels on his hut, fine for him. If he can't put them up without my tax dollars, he should go back to burning oxen turds to keep warm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    If we do nothing and the scientists were right, we make it harder on all future life on the planet, just to satisfy our short-term greed.
    The scientists are right.

    The scientists are saying there's no urgency about this global warming stuff.

    The CON-MEN, who aren't scientists, are the ones pushing the panic buttons.

  10. #390
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    Re: Is Global Warming a myth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    What part of climate change do you not understand?
    The part where the change hasn't happened,

    You know, the part where the statistical variation in hurricane intensity isn't being violated?

    That change?

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