View Poll Results: What do you think of Hitler

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  • Evil maniacal monster. Thank God he's dead.

    51 66.23%
  • Villain who you can empathize with without condoning like MacBeth.

    5 6.49%
  • Great guy who has been unjustly villified by his victorious enemies.

    15 19.48%
  • A great artist

    6 7.79%
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Thread: What do you think of Hitler?

  1. #141
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    Re: What do you think of Hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    It is inevitable that when there is a political void (and there was a huge one from the failure of the Socialists/Communists and their betrayal of the German workers) there will be someone to come in and fill it. That is what happened with the Nazi's.
    Yes and somebody needed to capitalize on that and Hitler did it best. Thats why he won the election. Thats why he was the cleverest out of all the competing parties.



    Again, Hitler was not the architect of such a massive plan. Moreover, they had huge infusions of foreign capital so it wasn't surprising in the least that they were able to rebuild.



    Again, Hitler had little or nothing to do with most of this.
    Nobody is of the impression that Hitler is responsible for everything that happened. He created a dictatorship that had posts which controlled individual things, so the military feats and victories are not that of Hitlers alone, but his military commanders, and for economics, his financial advisors. There is no dispute, however, that he was the mastermind behind all of this, he was the force that pushed things through, he was the reason the German people bought everything he could throw at them because he was clever enough to have created a cult of personality for himself that would serve him to the end.
    Try doing something terribly evil and getting the people to love you for doing it.
    Just for a second, grasp that level of deception and public manipulation. That is pure genius.

    Again, it wasn't "his". Yes, Stalin was much more involved in all aspects of Soviet policy, to the point where other world leaders were astounded at the knowledge that he commanded of various military tactics, weaponry, etc... for example, but he is not the creator of every single policy during the years that he was in office. That is giving him way too much credit and, as I said earlier, letting way too many people off the hook.
    Considering such things where achieved under Hitlers or Stalins reign, people tend to give credit to the leader of these regimes, even though he isnt the only one admired for his statesmanship (where it is due). Nobody can deny Joseph Goebbels was a fantastic propaganda machine.
    Its not a realistic prospect to break it all down and give you the names of every individual politician responsible or whatever. I dont even know why you bothering making this argument. In the end there is the realization that none of this would have been possible without such leaders, they brought it together, they capitalized and did something at the time and changed the course of many people. That is why they deserve the credits, ultimately it is of there doing when it falls down to it.
    Last edited by kaya'08; 02-15-10 at 01:18 PM.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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  2. #142
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    Re: What do you think of Hitler?

    I'm shocked that there are people who can empatize with Hitler.

  3. #143
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    Re: What do you think of Hitler?

    Nobody here is emphasizing with him.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
    > Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <

  4. #144
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    Re: What do you think of Hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya
    Considering such things where achieved under Hitlers or Stalins reign, people tend to give credit to the leader of these regimes, even though he isnt the only one admired for his statesmanship (where it is due). Nobody can deny Joseph Goebbels was a fantastic propaganda machine.
    Its not a realistic prospect to break it all down and give you the names of every individual politician responsible or whatever. I dont even know why you bothering making this argument.
    The argument I am making (sorry if it was unclear) is not simply that one must name the names of every single individual involved, but rather that underlying all of the decisions of the Soviet bureaucracy (as an example) and even of Stalin himself there are very powerful social forces at work which are the cause of these actions. Stalin was part of a massive state bureaucracy whose relation to the rest of the Soviet people and those various classes/strata which they comprised was constantly shifting, and even within the bureaucracy itself there were conflicting interests and constant shifts in internal relations.

    When one simply talks about Stalin they are leaving out the rest of the story entirely (except for me, as when I say "Stalin" I am presuming all of this, FYI); in order to understand how Stalin came into power and what the decisions of the politburo were at the time one must also understand all the circumstances surrounding these actions, the balance of forces at the time, and their relations.

    The degeneration of the Bolshevik party and the USSR were due to a whole variety of extremely complex issues that is essentially impossible to pin down to "Stalin did/said/decreed xyz".

    The same goes with Hitler and every other dictator.

    In the end there is the realization that none of this would have been possible without such leaders, they brought it together, they capitalized and did something at the time and changed the course of many people. That is why they deserve the credits, ultimately it is of there doing when it falls down to it.
    To say that none of it would have been possible without these specific individuals is just as empty a statement as saying its opposite. This is going into the territory of alternative history, which is in my opinion an ultimately pointless road to travel.

    A more important question to ask is how did these leaders come into power? What were the forces and the sequence of events that led to their rise?

    The bureaucratization of the USSR was certainly well under way with or without Stalin as an individual, so why was he the one that ultimately ended up on top? I think Trotsky said it best:

    The entire effort of Stalin, with whom at that time Zinoviev and Kamenev were working hand in hand, was thenceforth directed to freeing the party machine from the control of the rank-and-file members of the party. In this struggle for “stability” of the Central Committee, Stalin proved the most consistent and reliable among his colleagues. He had no need to tear himself away from international problems; he had never been concerned with them. The petty bourgeois outlook of the new ruling stratum was his own outlook. He profoundly believed that the task of creating socialism was national and administrative in its nature. He looked upon the Communist International as a necessary evil would should be used so far as possible for the purposes of foreign policy. His own party kept a value in his eyes merely as a submissive support for the machine.

    Trotsky, Leon
    The Revolution Betrayed
    The same holds true with Germany. With the pitiful failure of the communists the balance of forces shifted sharply to the right, which is what allowed the Nazi's to gain the upper hand.

    I'm not trying to say, however, that these individuals had absolutely no role in their personal lives; they were freely thinking human beings and were able to choose and act as they so decided. However, it is the combination of their actions/ideologies and the material circumstances of the time that got them to where they were able to get to. As an extreme example, I think we can both agree that a Hitler would not be able to get into power in the US in the next week or so, no matter how great of a propagandist he is.
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 02-16-10 at 12:59 AM.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

  5. #145
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    Re: What do you think of Hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Nobody here is emphasizing with him.
    keep bluffing Liebchen, we are not ready to invade Essex yet

  6. #146
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    Re: What do you think of Hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    "Hitler's ideology"? Mussolini himself upon reading Mein Kampf called it "a boring tome that I have never been able to read" and remarked that Hitler's beliefs expressed in the book were "little more than commonplace clichés." (Wiki)

    The ideas expressed in Mein Kampf were the ramblings of a bumbling nutjob; there was no "genius" or really any intellectualism that went into it. He took ideas that were already existent and wrote them down in a book.

    So I guess I'm not sure where your belief that Hitler was some kind of genius fits in?

    And what about my earlier statement do you disagree with?
    You have completely misunderstood, I was referring to the statement that the Nazis were not motivated by Hitler's ideology.

    However, the nutjob and madman bullcrap that was written in the book Mein Kampf is the same nutjob and madman actions that the Nazis have taken in their policies.
    For example, the persecution of Jews.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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  7. #147
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    Re: What do you think of Hitler?

    He was a bad man.

  8. #148
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    Re: What do you think of Hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    The argument I am making (sorry if it was unclear) is not simply that one must name the names of every single individual involved, but rather that underlying all of the decisions of the Soviet bureaucracy (as an example) and even of Stalin himself there are very powerful social forces at work which are the cause of these actions. Stalin was part of a massive state bureaucracy whose relation to the rest of the Soviet people and those various classes/strata which they comprised was constantly shifting, and even within the bureaucracy itself there were conflicting interests and constant shifts in internal relations.
    Its simply my position that Stalin and Hitler where cunning statesmen and that cannot be neglected. Im not too informed about communism other than the fact i know it doesnt work ()
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
    > Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <

  9. #149
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    Re: What do you think of Hitler?

    I wish this had been a public poll so I would know who to avoid. Thus far there are 11 posters who think he was a great guy!! Unbelievable.

  10. #150
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    Re: What do you think of Hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Its simply my position that Stalin and Hitler where cunning statesmen and that cannot be neglected. Im not too informed about communism other than the fact i know it doesnt work ()
    It doesn't look like capitalism works anymore, either.

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