View Poll Results: Openly gay personnel in the army?

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  • Yes - im cool with that

    62 77.50%
  • No - never again will i pick up the soap

    13 16.25%
  • Other - explain

    5 6.25%
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Thread: Gays in the military (its anonymous)

  1. #151
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    Re: Gays in the military (its anonymous)

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    Dumb assumptions by policy makers.
    Then there's nothing to debate here, you choose not to see reason.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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  2. #152
    Irrelevant Pissant

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    Re: Gays in the military (its anonymous)

    You do realize how insignificant the money that goes to showers is when compared with the rest of the military expanses, like, say, a predator UAV?
    Yeah, but Predators are awesome.

    Wrong - for the military's interests - and that's why there's nothing nanny about it.
    Ok, why does the military have an interest in treating soldiers like they can't handle sharing showers?

    Then there's nothing to debate here, you choose not to see reason.
    Reason involves conclusions drawn from accepted premises. Stating that a premise is "common sense" is not reason, it is simply an unsubstantiated premise. If you would like to make a reasoned argument for why such an absurd policy should exist, I am all ears.

    What do you imagine the consequences would be if men and women showered together?

    Since, as you have observed, there is no innate difference between the attraction of a straight man to a woman and a gay man to another man, and there have been no observable consequences of allowing gay men to shower together, one can project that there would similarly be no observable consequences to allowing men and women to shower together.

    That is reason.

  3. #153
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    Re: Gays in the military (its anonymous)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I'm entirely fine with gays in the military, there have always been gays, there will always be gays, they deserve to be able to serve their country just like anyone else.
    I totally agree 110%. I see the prevention of gays in the militery as nothing less than unfounded discrimination. I look forward to the day gays can serve openly and without fear in the greatest military in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Frankly, the reason lots of people have given, that the military is too butch to deal with it, is a fairly pathetic excuse. The fact that lots of military men (and women too, I suppose) are homophobic is a sign of their immaturity and emotional stagnation, certainly not something to be proud of.
    I think a lot of opposition might also be based on general ignorance. People approach the issue with preconceived stereotypes of gays, which I admit is not helped by the radicals in the gay movement, but are still generally false and misleading over all. A gay soldier doesn't wear a shawl and high heals to combat. That folly would decadence, not sexual preference.

    Your average gay soldier is virtually indistinguishable from any hetero soldier, so from where I'm standing there's no reason to bar gays from serving.

  4. #154
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    Re: Gays in the military (its anonymous)

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    Yeah, but Predators are awesome.
    I know.
    Ok, why does the military have an interest in treating soldiers like they can't handle sharing showers?
    The soldier is the property of the military.
    The military would like to keep its property in perfect shape and with zero distractions.
    That is of course not what's happening on the ground, but it's a policy.
    Reason involves conclusions drawn from accepted premises. Stating that a premise is "common sense" is not reason
    Common sense describes a reason for having a reason, it is not a reason for itself but it certainly is an ally.
    It is simply an unsubstantiated premise. If you would like to make a reasoned argument for why such an absurd policy should exist, I am all ears.
    Look, when arguing over issues that affect a collective, I tend to separate between my own, personal opinion (what I think is right for me) and the concern for the collective (what I think is right for everyone as one grouped entity).

    The reason I am saying this is because, personally, I have no problem with mixed showers.
    In fact, let's face it, what kind of a male would refuse showering with naked women?
    However, when I'm arguing on policies and laws and issues that would concern me as part of the collective, and not me as an individual, I must see this from the point of view of the military as an administrating entity.

    The military sees, as I've mentioned earlier, its soldiers as its property.
    The military believes then that the soldier's main concern is to fulfill his role and service in the organization, be it to fight in the front or to defend from the rear.
    The military, hence, has adapted policies that would be considered by civilians as "nanny" policies, policies that come to control the soldiers from misbehavior.
    However, such policies are all united in their interest, the military's interest, to center the soldier on one sole goal, that is, his role in the military.

    To cut to the point, distractions, be it a sexual distraction or any other kind of distraction, will be prevented by the military whenever it's possible and practical.
    That means, everything that would get the soldier to sink in thoughts, instead of thinking on how to fulfill his role better - would be prevented by the military when possible.
    What do you imagine the consequences would be if men and women showered together?
    It would be a hell of a fun I'd tell you that.
    However, I do believe that it would cause a bit of informality and unprofessional behavior, leading to the mentioned sexual distraction.
    Since, as you have observed, there is no innate difference between the attraction of a straight man to a woman and a gay man to another man, and there have been no observable consequences of allowing gay men to shower together, one can project that there would similarly be no observable consequences to allowing men and women to shower together.

    That is reason.
    I don't think that women and men would ever share showers in the military. (except, as mentioned, in submarines)

    I do agree however that gays showering with males is just like straight males showering with females, something that mentalgear dismisses.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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  5. #155
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    Re: Gays in the military (its anonymous)

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    There's nothing you should be sorry about, you're simply making a false statement.
    I've said nothing false.

    And I laugh at that fictional belief.
    You really have a hard time distinguishing fact from fiction, don't you?

    As usual, you've just made a wrong statement.
    I have never claimed that the soldiers are not able(As stated quite clearly in my previous post, and as expected from anyone who is not brainless to be able to comprehend), but that this is a military policy.
    It's military policy that soldiers are incapable of doing their jobs if they see a person they're attracted to?

    It is only saddening that such people like you have such repulsive opinions about our military, and it only earns you disrespect in return.
    Please do explain what opinions of our military are 'repulsive'? The opinions that I think they're of higher caliber than YOU obviously do? Only you could find that repulsive.

    Then continue to hope, that's all you'll be able to do.

    Point is, the military policy has nothing to do about you "hard-working" civilians, but about military personnel, and I'm sorry but it's none of your business.
    Holy ****ing ****, are you kidding me? None of my business? Now I know you're full of ****. It is every BIT my business. It is my country, my military, and my tax dollars funding them. Every goddamn thing my country's military does is my business. ALL of it. It is ALL of our business and it's even more telling about you personally that you're of the mindset that it isn't our business. The **** it isn't.

  6. #156
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    Re: Gays in the military (its anonymous)

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    I've said nothing false.
    False.
    You really have a hard time distinguishing fact from fiction, don't you?
    False.
    It's military policy that soldiers are incapable of doing their jobs if they see a person they're attracted to?
    False.
    I think they're of higher caliber than YOU obviously do?
    False
    Only you could find that repulsive.
    False.
    Holy ****ing ****, are you kidding me? None of my business? Now I know you're full of ****. It is every BIT my business. It is my country, my military, and my tax dollars funding them. Every goddamn thing my country's military does is my business. ALL of it. It is ALL of our business and it's even more telling about you personally that you're of the mindset that it isn't our business. The **** it isn't.
    Charming.

    False.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

  7. #157
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    Re: Gays in the military (its anonymous)

    I am all for gays openly in the military. Some of the most intelligent people I have met in my life were gay.

    The military needs more brain power than they do brawn power in modern warfare. Our forces would be losing a great resource by banning gays.

  8. #158
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    Re: Gays in the military (its anonymous)

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    False.
    False.
    False.
    False
    False.
    Charming.

    False.
    Wow, such a compelling argument you make!

    When you actually come up with something of substance, why don't you let us know.

  9. #159
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    Re: Gays in the military (its anonymous)

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Do I think they should? No.
    Would I have a problem with that? No.
    Oh but that would cause a distraction amongst our female personnel....righht?

    Then you've naturally succeeded in hiding it.
    You where probably too busy pissing Rivat off at that point to notice. I think that point was fairly obvious in what makes your argument flawed so one would have thought you would have picked up on where it was leading.

    Yeah why won't you give me a moment and I'll count for you.
    You mean you dont know? I just assumed you did when you said there isnt all that many gays in the military.

    I don't need to prove that sexual distraction is considered a distraction, it's right there in the name of the term.
    Is that your argument?

    Oh so let me see if I understand, you claim that because women and men have a natural difference in strength, it means that women cannot shower with men together.
    No, it makes women more vulnerable in such circumstances, for example to sexual harrasment by men (and more dominantly sexual assault).

    But only a moment ago you've stated that it shouldn't be a problem to have two opposing sexualities showering together, right?
    IF those men can be trusted to excercise a level of maturity and control, absolutely. Unfortunately we cannot account for every individual man and since homosexual assaults on straight men is something which is very uncommon, not only is it stupid and pointless to group them together anyway, i dont see much cause for concern keeping them together.


    You know, I've really given you a chance, but if you choose to be one of those internet retarded trolls who aren't capable of forming an argument, relying on baseless accusations and usually end up in the debate politics' recycling-bin, then so be it.
    Its good they recycle. The main question is, will you answer my question?

    You've tried to point out to the only valid point in this debate that you have brought up, but when you've done this you've only strengthen the opposing position that sexual distraction is indeed a possibility when you've said: "Do you KNOW what happens when you stick gay men together in a shower?"

    And you base that on?
    Mathematics. Statistically, gays are more probable in indulging in sexual activities in a shower full of gays then they would a shower full of straights.

    And you just can't bear a thought.
    Lol thats actually quiet funny can i still that one?

    Are they allowed to be open about their homosexuality? Are they showing up in military statistics?
    Works both ways i guess.

    No more than you're advocating homophobia when you refer to female to male relations as different than male to male or female to female relations.
    And yet one of us has violated the forum's rules and would suffer from the consequences.
    Yeah anyway, your totally missing my point.
    Straight men straight women seperation = good.
    gay men straight men seperation = shower full of homosexuals = where is the less distraction in that?

    Getting it now?
    In otherwords, its a POINTLESS thing you are advocating.


    That's not the sole factor for "my point"'s validation.
    Please present them.
    So far we have agreed on seperating straights from gays will lessen distraction because sticking gays in a shower room full of other gays naturally does exactly that.

    You have apparently missed a whole paragraph.
    Reported?

    Cant take a debate? Its all good.

    Since ive revealed your agenda, i have no interest in addressing your points from this point onwards because its irrelevant to my poll anyway. Its a yes or no question, and then you explain why or why not you want gays in the military and debate that.
    If you wanna set up a seperate poll "should gays shower together", please be my quest, PM me the URL, and lets have some fun.

    ALSO your reply to Rivvat has prooven you are incapable of conducting a mature debate, so you ill return the favour and simply ignore your irrelevant opinons anyway. Post one more out of thread post, ill return the Report.
    Last edited by MetalGear; 02-05-10 at 05:39 PM.

  10. #160
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    Re: Gays in the military (its anonymous)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    ... I look forward to the day gays can serve openly and without fear in the greatest military in the world. ...
    Too late, they already do. Just not your military.
    Don't work out, work in.

    Never eat anything that's served in a bucket.

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