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Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

Are Teacher Unions a good thing?


  • Total voters
    51
Yes I am. I'm also factoring in the number of BMWs in the teacher parking lots at my kid's schools.
60k is a good salary, it's not great. not a bmw salary, certainly.
 
primarily for the teachers
at least according to this recent study:
Contrary to many past studies on teachers' unions ... I find unions have no effect on teacher pay. I also present evidence teacher unionization causes an increase in full-time teacher employment of about 5 percent, a negligible decrease in student-teacher ratios, and only has a short-run positive effect on current operating expenditures per student.
I estimate the impact of unions on high school dropout rates using 1970-1990 U.S. Census school district summary data and find little evidence that unions affect this outcome measure. However, I am unable to determine with my data whether similar results would be found for other achievement measures that include more students from higher portions of the ability distribution.
The results and conclusions of this analysis raise a puzzle: why do teachers bother to organize, especially at the high rates observed in the data, given the lack of wage and class size effects? One possible answer to this puzzle is teachers perceive organization increases their pay. Indeed, when talking to union members during this study, wage increases were the most commonly mentioned benefit of unionization, in contrast to what this analysis shows. Another important reason for unionizing is to give teachers a voice with which to improve their working conditions as well as to establish well-defined rules governing hiring and firing, pay structure and promotion. There is anecdotal evidence teachers' unions provide these benefits ..., although I lack the data to test for such effects. Finally, unionization may increase non-wage benefits such as pensions or health care that are valued by teachers. Unionization thus can infuence how satisfied teachers are with their job, and consequently, may affect parent and student satisfaction with their school district.
[bold emphasis added by bubba]
http://www.nctq.org/docs/effect_of_teachers'_unions.pdf
 
60k is a good salary, it's not great. not a bmw salary, certainly.

AMEN..I think their contracts should expire the last month they teach for the year. Here if the strike it effects the begining of the school year after the got a paid summer off. They look at their degree as a reason to make 100,000 a yr. Claim its for the children..NOT.
 
Yes I am. I'm also factoring in the number of BMWs in the teacher parking lots at my kid's schools.

Most of the nicer cars that teachers own are as a result of a second income from a spouse that is a professional. I know a male teacher here whos wife is a top doctor, there are many of these cases. It is a matter of perspective, but if you have your mind made up, then there is not much to discuss...
 
Most of the nicer cars that teachers own are as a result of a second income from a spouse that is a professional. I know a male teacher here whos wife is a top doctor, there are many of these cases. It is a matter of perspective, but if you have your mind made up, then there is not much to discuss...

It's not a matter of perspective, it's a fact that these people are not struggling to get by, which is what you were arguing.
 
It's not a matter of perspective, it's a fact that these people are not struggling to get by, which is what you were arguing.
Is that what we're arguing? Who said "struggling to get by?" These are people with college degrees, and so they should be compared to other similarly educated workers.
 
AMEN..I think their contracts should expire the last month they teach for the year. Here if the strike it effects the begining of the school year after the got a paid summer off. They look at their degree as a reason to make 100,000 a yr. Claim its for the children..NOT.
Wow! $100K? Who suggested teachers should make that much? Obviously that's not going to happen, but who has even suggested it? Can you find a quote from a union official using that number in a serious context?
 
Wow! $100K? Who suggested teachers should make that much? Obviously that's not going to happen, but who has even suggested it? Can you find a quote from a union official using that number in a serious context?

Not from a union but many teachers think that. they see their neighbors with a Master degree doing better and get jealous..they are over paid now as it is.
 
When teacher salaries are pushed up by unions in one place, they tend to raise teacher salaries elsewhere as well.
I personally don't have a problem with teacher salaries. They are well educated, work hard, and put up with a lot of BS.

My problem is when unions try to shape policy, protect incompetents, and continue to skim money with closed shops that force workers to pay union dues. They then turn to use these dues to further, usually, liberal political agendas, scratching the backs of politicians who work for the continued existence of the unions, who continue to fleece the workers.
 
Is that what we're arguing? Who said "struggling to get by?" These are people with college degrees, and so they should be compared to other similarly educated workers.

Actually, that's bull****.

A man with a BA in Business is poised to be more productive than a man with a BA in Phys Ed.

The MARKET determines what each is worth, when the market isn't distorted by freedom destroying goonions.

And the market fluctuates, anyway. Some years graduates with a BS in Chemical engineering start out with more, some years graduates with a BS in aerospace start with more. That's called "life".
 
Funny.

America was strong before the goonions.

Freedom is what makes America strong.

Loss of freedom is what's hurting it now.

Unions have become their own bureaucracy, whose primary function is the continuance of its own, expense account padded existence.

I once, years ago, started a petition at a place I worked to get rid of the do nothing union we had there. I started getting calls from the union rep at all hours, and veiled threats, plus hysterics on the part of the woman.

Challenging unions is scary.
 
Maybe, but the academic requirements for 7-12 grade math teachers in my state START with calculus and go up from there.

Calculus...oh....you mean that high school course I taught myself one summer. That's not a very high standard. In my high school, only one math teach had a masters in math. The rest didn't get that far.

Frankly, a teacher doesn't need an advanced degree to teach the basics, especially not in something as straightforward as math.

If teaching were so easy, so well paid, and such a great scam, more people would do it. Fact: it takes 3-5 years to become an effective teacher, but about half of those who enter the profession at the training stage quit and do something else before the end of their fifth year teaching.

Fact, it teaching wasn't such an easy profession, there wouldn't be so many, let's face it, less than average intelligent people becoming teachers. The students studying "education" as Syracuse University uniformly found third grade science difficult. They were cute, not bright.

All you're really saying here is that you'd teach them in light of your own political views. That's your right, but you can't expect an institution that everyone pays for to teach YOUR values to everyone.

Of course I can expect publicly financed schools to teach the truth about history.

Is there something wrong with expecting schools to teach facts, not fantasy?
 
Funny.

America was strong before the goonions.

Freedom is what makes America strong.

Loss of freedom is what's hurting it now.

the precipitous decline of the American middle class mimics the decline of unionization among its workers
does that correlation equal causation
what else explains it
 
It's not a matter of perspective, it's a fact that these people are not struggling to get by, which is what you were arguing.

I never once said that they are struggling. I said that we lived on one salary, my teacher salary, and that was meager. We got by, but could not afford a BMW. What I AM saying that $60 K a year in most of CA where cost of living is among the highest in the nation, is not unreasonable considering the amount of education and training that teachers have in relation to other fields.
 
Actually, that's bull****.

A man with a BA in Business is poised to be more productive than a man with a BA in Phys Ed.

The MARKET determines what each is worth, when the market isn't distorted by freedom destroying goonions.

And the market fluctuates, anyway. Some years graduates with a BS in Chemical engineering start out with more, some years graduates with a BS in aerospace start with more. That's called "life".

What is actually bull**** is that teachers have every type of degree imaginable, thus making your analogy illogical. They have BA in Business, Masters degrees and PhDs. A teacher with a business degree makes what a teacher makes, far less then one that goes to work with a firm JUST AS a teacher with a Phys Ed degree makes FAR LESS than a professional trainer, a sports specialist or scientist whose primary responsibilities address health and physical fitness. Working as a sports therapist for a pro sports team is FAR MORE lucrative than teaching...
 
Actually, that's bull****.

A man with a BA in Business is poised to be more productive than a man with a BA in Phys Ed.
More productive? Measured how? Just because someone's income is higher doesn't mean they are more productive. There are lots of people running around with money made in one our various bubbles--you really think they are more productive?
The MARKET determines what each is worth, when the market isn't distorted by freedom destroying goonions.
You are mistaking "freedom" for capital. Not the same thing.

The attitude you profess here suggests a personality that understands the price of everything and the value of nothing.
 
Not from a union but many teachers think that. they see their neighbors with a Master degree doing better and get jealous..they are over paid now as it is.
I never met anyone...ever...who didn't think they deserved to make more money. A fault so widely spread among all us human is hardly something to hold against only one class of people.
 
My problem is when unions try to shape policy, protect incompetents, and continue to skim money with closed shops that force workers to pay union dues. They then turn to use these dues to further, usually, liberal political agendas, scratching the backs of politicians who work for the continued existence of the unions, who continue to fleece the workers.
I'll agree with you, but I'd also note that the same activities are conducted by large businesses and industry groups. Everyone uses whatever power they have to their own advantage. Singling out teachers (not exactly a tremendously powerful group) for special spanking seems out of place to me.
 
Fact, it teaching wasn't such an easy profession, there wouldn't be so many, let's face it, less than average intelligent people becoming teachers. The students studying "education" as Syracuse University uniformly found third grade science difficult. They were cute, not bright.

The teachers that teach there, for the most part, are great. Professional and very well educated.

The issue lies with student motivation and lack of parental involvement.

Have you researched this issue or is this just a knee jerk reaction?

Regarding quality of teachers:

Prospective teachers who took state teacher licensing exams from 2002 to 2005 scored higher on SATs in high school and earned higher grades in college than their counterparts who took the exams in the mid-1990s, the report said.

The average SAT verbal scores of prospective teachers passing the Praxis tests to teach English, science, social studies, math and art from 2002 to 2005 were higher than those of prospective teachers in the mid-1990s — and were also higher than the average SAT scores for all college graduates, the report said.

The percentage of candidates reporting a 3.5 GPA or higher rose from 27% to 40%


Teacher qualifications improve in the past decade - USATODAY.com

The college grades of prospective teachers has also improved. About 40 percent of the prospective teachers taking the licensing tests from 2002 to 2005 had a grade point average of 3.5 or higher on the traditional 4-point scale during college, up from 26 percent in the 1990s, the report said.

“By this measure, we are witnessing a dramatic improvement in the quality of the teacher pool,” the report said.


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/12/education/12teachers.html?_r=1&ref=education&oref=slogin

3.5 or higher?

•Federal Title II reporting rules, which in 1998 required states and teachers' colleges to report Praxis pass rates.

• No Child Left Behind, which in 2002 forced states to expand teacher licensing testing, just as they were setting higher standards, such as minimum GPA requirements, for teacher education candidates.


ETS: Educational Testing Service ? Home

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Calculus...oh....you mean that high school course I taught myself one summer. That's not a very high standard. In my high school, only one math teach had a masters in math. The rest didn't get that far.

Frankly, a teacher doesn't need an advanced degree to teach the basics, especially not in something as straightforward as math.
I'm not sure you're qualified to decide what a math teacher needs to know. Those standards are set by states and usually conform to the guidelines set by professional groups--like the National Council for the Teaching of Mathematics. Again, math teachers' training STARTS with calculus, it doesn't end there.

And you're dodging my primary point, which is that you claim you could do this job easily, yet you've never had to teach something to a large group of someone else's children. Until you've done that, you really speak from ignorance, no matter how self-assured you may sound while doing it.
Fact, it teaching wasn't such an easy profession, there wouldn't be so many, let's face it, less than average intelligent people becoming teachers. The students studying "education" as Syracuse University uniformly found third grade science difficult. They were cute, not bright.
Poor arguments, when challenged, usually devolve to insults. And so here we are.
Of course I can expect publicly financed schools to teach the truth about history.

Is there something wrong with expecting schools to teach facts, not fantasy?
I guess you'll have to be more specific. Actual historians often disagree about history, so it's quite likely you've just chosen the version you like and decided it is so. Glad Howard Zinn is dead are we?
 
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Unions are what made America strong, its odd but not surprising that Repubs hate them although we all benefit from having had them in the fabric of America...Buy Union...Look for the Union Label...

Yea, unions make America strong by artificially driving up the cost of doing business by demanding higher than market wages.

I mean, look how well unionization worked for Detroit!
 
The right to strike is pretty central to labor law. Without it, employees have pretty much no leverage over their employers. The conditions of workers before the right to strike was established were pretty bad. Do you really want to go back to those days?

No one is stopping them from going on strike. Problem is, you have no right to keep your job if you're not working. Rights go both ways.
 
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