View Poll Results: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

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  • Yes, entirely.

    7 10.29%
  • Yes, partially

    19 27.94%
  • No, partially

    10 14.71%
  • No, entirely

    29 42.65%
  • Other.

    3 4.41%
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Thread: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

  1. #251
    Advisor Rassales's Avatar
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Good to know...

    I'm all for good teachers making more money. I just wish we could separate the good ones from the bad; I think labor laws make this exceedingly difficult, though...
    As I mentioned back at the beginning of this thread, we're seeing at least one teacher union relenting on the question of teacher evaluation (see the news article I cited). One system that seems to make sense is to compare the progress made by individual students over time, and cross reference the progress they make with their teachers. Track each of them over three years, then compare the most recent year with the previous three. Those who make better progress in year four than the average of years one through three must have a pretty good teacher in year three, no?

    One other thing--we need to make sure that students have some incentive for doing well on whatever tests we give them. Lots of kids don't take the tests seriously because their scores have NO effect on them. They just mark the little bubbles at random, or they make a "Christmas tree" pattern with them.

  2. #252
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    They do with the Virginia Education Association.
    They certainly don't here. I don't think even the teachers have any real control over the union. A couple of years ago, the union really wanted to block a proposition on the ballot and so they boosted the "dues" on teachers state-wide. Not only could the teachers not refuse to pay, they couldn't even demand their money not be used for political means.

    California is such a screwed up state.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #253
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by pugetsoundwa View Post
    yr was a typo...get over it.

    minimum wage?? Yet a CEO of a Corp losing money gets multi million is fair???
    Works for me.

    It's the stockholder's issue, no concern of mine.

    Do the math.....30,000 GM workers each get paid $30,000 too much versus one CEO getting paid $30,000,000 too much. Which costs more?

    Oh.

    Liberals can't do math.

    30,000 GM workers getting $30,000 too much is $900,000,000 dollars too much.

    How's that compare with the CEO's measley $30,000,000?

    Hmmm?

  4. #254
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by pugetsoundwa View Post
    No the FACT is they are innocent until PROVEN guilty. They deserve a paycheck UNTIL PROVEN guilty at which time they can be held accountable in a court of law.
    In the real world, if they're not producing, they're not on the payroll for very long.

    Time to make that happen with the schools.

    BTW, we're not talking about courts of law, nor are we even discussing guilt or innocence.

    We're talking about productivity and expense.

    Education is a business.

    It's employees should be treated in a businesslike manner.

  5. #255
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassales View Post
    I was thinking about the NYC situation that Scarecrow mentions, but that's not California. One of the most common illegitimate debating tactics is to cite an isolated problem and make it seem widespread. I suspect there are lots of situations in NYC that are not typical of the whole country.
    ORRRR....you could do a little research yourself and see that it's not isolated to New York....

  6. #256
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    They certainly don't here. I don't think even the teachers have any real control over the union. A couple of years ago, the union really wanted to block a proposition on the ballot and so they boosted the "dues" on teachers state-wide. Not only could the teachers not refuse to pay, they couldn't even demand their money not be used for political means.

    California is such a screwed up state.
    The teachers do not elect their Association officers there? If they do, then they have control.

    Why do you stay if it is so screwed up?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  7. #257
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    They certainly don't here. I don't think even the teachers have any real control over the union. A couple of years ago, the union really wanted to block a proposition on the ballot and so they boosted the "dues" on teachers state-wide. Not only could the teachers not refuse to pay, they couldn't even demand their money not be used for political means.
    Sure they can, according to the Supreme Court:
    The Supreme Court in a landmark decision in 1998, in Communication Workers of America v. Beck,[27] defined the term "agency fee." This ruling applies to both public and private sector employees. A union may require all employees covered by a union security agreement to pay an "agency fee" which is designed to cover the cost associated with collective bargaining, contract administration, and grievance administration procedures. However, individual employees may opt out of any additional component of typical union dues that are related to "non-core" matters, such as political contributions and lobbying efforts.
    The Use of Union Dues for Political Activity-Current Status. | North America > United States from AllBusiness.com

    Anyone can require that their contributions not be used for political activity, and California teachers can prevent this being done by not joining the union. Their "fair share" required contributions cover only the costs of things like collective bargaining and conflict resolutions--the same benefits that every person in a bargaining unit gets whether they join the union or not. What that initiative would have done is require that every employee sign a statement that they APPROVE of their dues being used for political activity. They've always had the right to deny their contributions for political purposes.

  8. #258
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    ORRRR....you could do a little research yourself and see that it's not isolated to New York....
    I don't seem to have a problem doing research. I do have a problem accepting unsubstantiated assertions. The onus is on the one making the claim, particularly when the evidence provided doesn't match the claim he's supporting.

  9. #259
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassales View Post
    I don't seem to have a problem doing research. I do have a problem accepting unsubstantiated assertions. The onus is on the one making the claim, particularly when the evidence provided doesn't match the claim he's supporting.
    Well, here's what you do. When some presents some seemingly unreliable fact (so they're clearly not me), you look it up yourself and come back and prove it's not reliable.

  10. #260
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Well, here's what you do. When some presents some seemingly unreliable fact (so they're clearly not me), you look it up yourself and come back and prove it's not reliable.
    If that hypothetical person could not provide facts to back up their claim in the first place, there is nothing to refute. No case was made.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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