View Poll Results: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

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  • Yes, entirely.

    7 10.29%
  • Yes, partially

    19 27.94%
  • No, partially

    10 14.71%
  • No, entirely

    29 42.65%
  • Other.

    3 4.41%
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Thread: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

  1. #181
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    In the merit pay system, what teacher will welcome problem students? What teacher would volunteer to accept students with learning disabilities? Why would any teacher want to teach any other student except the "good" students? All teachers would want to teach AP courses. There's no incentive to teach all students.

    Furthermore, if improvement was all that was needed, won't teachers just grade more leniently, resulting in inflated GPA scores? What other "average student data" are you referring to if not grades?
    There is a statistically equitable way to determine a teacher's merit. First of all, they should be graded on a scale, and secondly, they should eliminate students who are X standard deviations outside the average from statistical consideration; that way, extremely bright students and extremely stupid students wouldn't be factored into their averages. That way, the comparisons would be between all teachers' core averages.

  2. #182
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    How do you feel about employers being forced into collective bargaining by the government?
    I'm not sure. That never happened in our district. As far as I know, it hasn't happened in California.

    The employer is forced into collective bargaining by the union, which is determined by a vote of the employees. The government doesn't force employers into collective bargaining, at least not here.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

  3. #183
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    There is a statistically equitable way to determine a teacher's merit. First of all, they should be graded on a scale, and secondly, they should eliminate students who are X standard deviations outside the average from statistical consideration; that way, extremely bright students and extremely stupid students wouldn't be factored into their averages. That way, the comparisons would be between all teachers' core averages.
    If we're going with standard deviations, then who would teach inner city schools? But more importantly, what exactly is being measured here? Grades? Learning styles? What?
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

  4. #184
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    I'm not sure. That never happened in our district. As far as I know, it hasn't happened in California.

    The employer is forced into collective bargaining by the union, which is determined by a vote of the employees. The government doesn't force employers into collective bargaining, at least not here.
    Under California law, the employer is obligated (among several other things) to negotiate with the union.

    CHAPTER 10 MEYERS-MILIAS-BROWN ACT

    LOCAL PUBLIC EMPLOYEE ORGANIZATIONS


    3543.5. Interference with employees' rights prohibited

    It is unlawful for a public school employer to do any of the following:

    (a) Impose or threaten to impose reprisals on employees, to discriminate or threaten to discriminate against employees, or otherwise to interfere with, restrain, or coerce employees because of their exercise of rights guaranteed by this chapter. For purposes of this subdivision, "employee" includes an applicant for employment or reemployment.

    (b) Deny to employee organizations rights guaranteed to them by this chapter.

    (c) Refuse or fail to meet and negotiate in good faith with an exclusive representative. Knowingly providing an exclusive representative with inaccurate information, whether or not in response to a request for information, regarding the financial resources of the public school employer constitutes a refusal or failure to meet and negotiate in good faith.

    (d) Dominate or interfere with the formation or administration of any employee organization, or contribute financial or other support to it, or in any way encourage employees to join any organization in preference to another.

    (e) Refuse to participate in good faith in the impasse procedure set forth in Article 9 (commencing with Section 3548).

    PERB: Public Employment Relations Board - Laws
    I emboldened the relevant text and hyper-linked the qualifying clauses in regards to "rights" and "impasse".
    Last edited by Ethereal; 02-04-10 at 01:52 AM.

  5. #185
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    But the teacher's association is not fighting on behalf of improving the Virginian education system,

    Wrong:

    "LEGISLATION TO INITIATE OR SUPPORT
    Full and honest rebenchmarking of the Standards of Quality (SOQ)

    When Virginia ranks 37th in the nation in per-pupil state funding for K-12 education, no permanent structural changes should be made to the SOQ. The rebenchmarking should exclude the "support cap" and other efforts to permanently cut K-12 funding.
    Funding the Standards of Quality tax initiative

    The Virginia Constitution calls on the General Assembly to "ensure that an educational program of high quality is … continually maintained." The VEA will introduce a tax proposal to provide the funds to keep this promise to Virginia's children.
    Expand programs and initiatives to raise high school completion rates

    The first step in moving our schools toward excellence, and the best course for our Commonwealth's future, is to increase high school completion rates. This is a cost-effective investment in today's students to lower future incarceration and dependence and to ensure future productivity.

    VEA proposes increasing support for the following research-based interventions to reach that goal:

    *
    Virginia Preschool Initiative
    *
    Comprehensive School Reform
    *
    Enhanced Career and Technical Education (Fine Arts - STEM)
    *
    Increased teacher participation in instructional decisions
    *
    Dropout prevention
    *
    Class size reduction
    *
    Increased salaries for education professionals and expanded existing scholarship loan programs"
    2010 VEA Legislative Agenda

    No one elected the teachers' union,
    Uh, wrong again, Association officers are elected:
    Powered by Google Docs


    You do realize that most fields have their own professional organizations don't you?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  6. #186
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    In the merit pay system, what teacher will welcome problem students? What teacher would volunteer to accept students with learning disabilities? Why would any teacher want to teach any other student except the "good" students? All teachers would want to teach AP courses. There's no incentive to teach all students.
    It wouldn't be difficult to design an algorithm to measure how the student was performing prior to the school year. If a teacher was assigned to a dumb class, where the average student previously learned only 0.8 years of material per year, then it would be considered good if the students learned 1.0 years of material per year under this teacher's watch.

    Conversely, if a teacher was assigned to an advanced class, where the average student was learning 1.5 years of material per year, the teacher would not be considered good if they only learned 1.0 years of material under this teacher's watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon
    Furthermore, if improvement was all that was needed, won't teachers just grade more leniently, resulting in inflated GPA scores? What other "average student data" are you referring to if not grades?
    Standardized test scores would be the most universal and objective measure.
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  7. #187
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    If we're going with standard deviations, then who would teach inner city schools? But more importantly, what exactly is being measured here? Grades? Learning styles? What?
    Average grades would be measured relative to other teachers (on scale) within the respective school, not within the district or the state. That way you would eliminate the disparity between demographics and localities. Eliminating students from the data set who fall X amount of standard deviations outside the average would provide a more accurate picture of the teacher's competence relative to the rest of the school.

    I'd give you a mathematical example of what I was talking about but it would take me forever to explain...

  8. #188
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Average teacher salaries are in the $30,000 to $40,000 range in the US.


    Substitute teachers here are payed $75 a day.

    This what you think is well paid for one of the most important jobs for the future success of our country.
    Considering the fact that many of them don't work a full year and don't produce anything, that's pretty damn good and more than I make.

    Sub's are a joke job, $75 is to much in my opinion.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  9. #189
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Wrong:

    "LEGISLATION TO INITIATE OR SUPPORT
    Full and honest rebenchmarking of the Standards of Quality (SOQ)

    When Virginia ranks 37th in the nation in per-pupil state funding for K-12 education, no permanent structural changes should be made to the SOQ. The rebenchmarking should exclude the "support cap" and other efforts to permanently cut K-12 funding.
    Funding the Standards of Quality tax initiative

    The Virginia Constitution calls on the General Assembly to "ensure that an educational program of high quality is … continually maintained." The VEA will introduce a tax proposal to provide the funds to keep this promise to Virginia's children.
    Expand programs and initiatives to raise high school completion rates

    The first step in moving our schools toward excellence, and the best course for our Commonwealth's future, is to increase high school completion rates. This is a cost-effective investment in today's students to lower future incarceration and dependence and to ensure future productivity.

    VEA proposes increasing support for the following research-based interventions to reach that goal:

    *
    Virginia Preschool Initiative
    *
    Comprehensive School Reform
    *
    Enhanced Career and Technical Education (Fine Arts - STEM)
    *
    Increased teacher participation in instructional decisions
    *
    Dropout prevention
    *
    Class size reduction
    *
    Increased salaries for education professionals and expanded existing scholarship loan programs"
    2010 VEA Legislative Agenda
    Most of those goals basically boil down to "Give schools more money." And NONE of them are anything that would remotely hurt any members of the union itself...and in most cases, benefit the members of the union.

    Whenever the union's interests align with the public interest, it is purely coincidental (and therefore the union isn't necessary). And whenever the union's interests are at odds with the public interest, you can bet that the union will pursue their own agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon
    Uh, wrong again, Association officers are elected:
    Powered by Google Docs
    Not by the voters, who have a primary interest in the education system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon
    You do realize that most fields have their own professional organizations don't you?
    A professional organization is one thing. Strong-arming public officials (and by extension, strong-arming the voters) into policies that reward their members at the expense of the public is a different matter entirely.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 02-04-10 at 01:51 AM.
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  10. #190
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It wouldn't be difficult to design an algorithm to measure how the student was performing prior to the school year. If a teacher was assigned to a dumb class, where the average student previously learned only 0.8 years of material per year, then it would be considered good if the students learned 1.0 years of material per year under this teacher's watch.

    Conversely, if a teacher was assigned to an advanced class, where the average student was learning 1.5 years of material per year, the teacher would not be considered good if they only learned 1.0 years of material under this teacher's watch.

    Standardized test scores would be the most universal and objective measure.
    All of this is under the assumption that student output is the same as teacher output. As I pointed out, it just isn't that simple. What if the student's parents are undergoing a divorce? What if one of their relatives had died? What if their boyfriend/girlfriend broke up with them during testing week?There can be any number of reasons that a student may not do well that is not related to what a teacher has to offer in their classroom. This alone shows us how vulnerable a teacher can be. Why should my job security depend on my students parents divorce, or their relationship with other students, etc?

    Secondly, standardized testing is not a good way to assess a students ability to learn. Standardized tests are designed to make sure the content standards are followed. It is not designed to assess a students ability to think critically, use analytical skills, and it certainly doesn't show the teaching style nor the effectiveness of the teacher. This is not an appropriate use for standardized testing.
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

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