View Poll Results: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

Voters
68. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, entirely.

    7 10.29%
  • Yes, partially

    19 27.94%
  • No, partially

    10 14.71%
  • No, entirely

    29 42.65%
  • Other.

    3 4.41%
Page 18 of 30 FirstFirst ... 8161718192028 ... LastLast
Results 171 to 180 of 297

Thread: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

  1. #171
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    the merit based system does not work in education because the product is not a direct product of a teacher's pedagogy. It's a combination of what the student wants to achieve, their ambition, their own motivation, along with what the teacher has provided in pedagogy.
    That might be true for individual students. The best teacher in the world won't be able to help a student who simply doesn't care. However, merit pay need not be based on individual students. Most teachers have classes of 25-30 students. If one teacher's students as a whole consistently outperform another teacher's students as a whole (after taking into account how smart the classes were BEFORE the school year), I think it's fair to say that one teacher is measurably better than the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon
    If you can solve the problem of measuring the quality of education from student to student, along with all those confounding variables I just listed, then I would have no problem with a merit based system.
    This is a good point. Not all students learn the same way, and a teacher who is great at working with students with specific personalities/abilities might not be good at working with other students. So measuring the quality of education from one student to another is very important too, in addition to measuring the average performance of the students in a teacher's class.

    Fortunately, the information technology exists where we can tell who is good at dealing with gifted children, who is good at dealing with problem children, and who is terrible. It's just a matter of utilizing it. Average student data is effective at telling who is a good teacher (or at least who is a good teacher for the classes they're teaching), and adjusting merit pay accordingly. Individual student data is effective at matching a student with the teacher who is the best fit for him/her.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 02-03-10 at 11:57 PM.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  2. #172
    Guru
    deltabtry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    MA.
    Last Seen
    11-26-16 @ 03:07 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    4,021

    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    None. Parasites never benefit their host victim.



    Making it nearly impossible to fire crappy teachers. Making it difficult for better teachers to get paid more than bad teachers. Reducing the incentive for genuinely talented people from becoming teachers in the first place. Costing the taxpayers an arm and a leg. Making it difficult to make necessary structural adjustments, such as making the school year longer.
    Well said.

  3. #173
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    Last Seen
    04-02-15 @ 06:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,211

    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Consumer benefit... yes.
    Indonesian benefit... yes and no. The immediate is yes, they get a job. Ultimately though, it is next to slave labor, and taking advantage of the fact that they had nothing so we can give them next to nothing and undercut the American worker is a pretty poor argument in my opinion.
    1. Those jobs benefit the children immensely. Their only alternatives are usually prostitution or starvation.

    2. The vast majority of Americans wouldn't take those jobs anyway.

    3. The American worker is the American consumer. Specialization and trade benefits virtually everyone involved. [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage"]Comparative advantage[/ame] is probably the most universally accepted economic principle.

    Nope, nice try man. Greedy corporations increase unemployment by caring about nothing but the bottom dollar at the cost of people's lives, and that is a big BIG problem with the slave mentality of the stock market.
    Well, you can't stop greed, so the only real solution is to rescind laws which favor labor unions.

  4. #174
    Disappointed Evolutionist
    Catawba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Last Seen
    05-28-13 @ 08:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    27,254

    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The mechanism works something like this:

    The school administrator tries to fire an incompetent teacher (or more realistically doesn't even TRY because they know it's futile). The union then raises hell, and will fight to no end to protect that person's job. It is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to fire a teacher for ANY reason.

    Unless the teacher ****ed one of their students, it's pretty much a lost cause to try to fire them...and even if they DID **** one of their students, there's a lot of red tape and the outcome is by no means guaranteed.
    That has not been the case in Virginia. In Virginia the biggest problem is attracting and retaining the best teachers because the pay and benefits are so crappy.
    And it would be even worse without a teachers association.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  5. #175
    Sage
    Dittohead not!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The Golden State
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:46 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    41,612

    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    As in:

    What benefits, if any, do they provide for schools?

    What problems, if any, do they cause for schools?
    OK, so I'm coming in late to this thread. Maybe what I'm about to post has already been posted.

    Too bad.

    I was a member of the California Teacher's Association for many years, served as chapter president a couple of terms, and as negotiator for the union for several years.

    I also served for six years as an administrator, sitting on the other side of the table.

    Not that it matters, but I do have some experience with at least one teacher's union.

    The union's job is to improve salary and working conditions for teachers, pure and simple. They don't improve the school, except by making the teachers more content with their lot.

    The notion that a teacher can not be fired is just that, a notion. A teacher can be fired for cause, just not for getting crosswise with the administration.

    Sometimes, the administration deserves to be opposed.

    I personally would not go into a classroom without the backing of the union, no way. For one thing, all a student has to do is accuse the teacher of inappropriate conduct, and it costs all of that teacher's savings and then some to defend a court case, even if there is nothing to the accusation at all. The district is not going to stand behind a teacher, but the union will. For another, the administration can get abusive, and the union is the only entity that can back up a teacher.

    Not only that, but there is the issue of collective bargaining. Teacher salaries aren't exactly on a par with the CEOs, but they are a lot better than they would be without the union.

    Yes, dealing with the union can be a pain sometimes, but in balance, the unions are a good thing.

    I do and did oppose the requirement to be a member of the NEA in order to be a member of the state union. The NEA doesn't do much other than support liberal causes that the members often disagree with.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

  6. #176
    Sage
    Lord Tammerlain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:24 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    10,432

    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    The only problem with that is that when the kids go to multiculturalism class the good teacher will teach the definition of the subject and explain its significance, while the bad teacher will have the students get out their prayer rugs during Kwanzaa while while she talks about how Jesus was born a bastard.
    When did Mary marry Joseph?

    Before or after Jesus's birth

    If after ( I cant remember it has been a long time) then he was a bastard

  7. #177
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    That has not been the case in Virginia. In Virginia the biggest problem is attracting and retaining the best teachers because the pay and benefits are so crappy.
    And it would be even worse without a teachers association.
    But the teacher's association is not fighting on behalf of improving the Virginian education system, they're fighting on behalf of the existing teachers. You may believe that their goals overlap, but they are by no means the same.

    No one elected the teachers' union, but the voters did elect the government which sets the pay/benefits for those teachers. If things would really be that much worse without the teachers' union, the voters could always throw the bums out in the next election and replace them with someone who would increase the pay/benefits for teachers.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  8. #178
    Sage
    Dittohead not!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The Golden State
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:46 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    41,612

    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    But the teacher's association is not fighting on behalf of improving the Virginian education system, they're fighting on behalf of the existing teachers. You may believe that their goals overlap, but they are by no means the same.

    No one elected the teachers' union, but the voters did elect the government which sets the pay/benefits for those teachers. If things would really be that much worse without the teachers' union, the voters could always throw the bums out in the next election and replace them with someone who would increase the pay/benefits for teachers.
    The teachers hire the union, pay their salaries, and are, in effect, their collective boss. If the union isn't doing its job, which is to represent their employers, the teachers, then they can be replaced.

    The voters can't throw the bums out, as the voters don't elect them. The union is not a government entity.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

  9. #179
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    Last Seen
    04-02-15 @ 06:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,211

    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    OK, so I'm coming in late to this thread. Maybe what I'm about to post has already been posted.

    Too bad.

    I was a member of the California Teacher's Association for many years, served as chapter president a couple of terms, and as negotiator for the union for several years.

    I also served for six years as an administrator, sitting on the other side of the table.

    Not that it matters, but I do have some experience with at least one teacher's union.

    The union's job is to improve salary and working conditions for teachers, pure and simple. They don't improve the school, except by making the teachers more content with their lot.

    The notion that a teacher can not be fired is just that, a notion. A teacher can be fired for cause, just not for getting crosswise with the administration.

    Sometimes, the administration deserves to be opposed.

    I personally would not go into a classroom without the backing of the union, no way. For one thing, all a student has to do is accuse the teacher of inappropriate conduct, and it costs all of that teacher's savings and then some to defend a court case, even if there is nothing to the accusation at all. The district is not going to stand behind a teacher, but the union will. For another, the administration can get abusive, and the union is the only entity that can back up a teacher.

    Not only that, but there is the issue of collective bargaining. Teacher salaries aren't exactly on a par with the CEOs, but they are a lot better than they would be without the union.

    Yes, dealing with the union can be a pain sometimes, but in balance, the unions are a good thing.

    I do and did oppose the requirement to be a member of the NEA in order to be a member of the state union. The NEA doesn't do much other than support liberal causes that the members often disagree with.
    How do you feel about employers being forced into collective bargaining by the government?

  10. #180
    The Image b4 Transition
    Lightdemon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    beneath the surface
    Last Seen
    05-31-12 @ 02:39 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,829

    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That might be true for individual students. The best teacher in the world won't be able to help a student who simply doesn't care. However, merit pay need not be based on individual students. Most teachers have classes of 25-30 students. If one teacher's students as a whole consistently outperform another teacher's students as a whole (after taking into account how smart the classes were BEFORE the school year), I think it's fair to say that one teacher is measurably better than the other.

    This is a good point. Not all students learn the same way, and a teacher who is great at working with students with specific personalities/abilities might not be good at working with other students. So measuring the quality of education from one student to another is very important too, in addition to measuring the average performance of the students in a teacher's class.

    Fortunately, the information technology exists where we can tell who is good at dealing with gifted children, who is good at dealing with problem children, and who is terrible. It's just a matter of utilizing it. Average student data is effective at telling who is a good teacher (or at least who is a good teacher for the classes they're teaching), and adjusting merit pay accordingly. Individual student data is effective at matching a student with the teacher who is the best fit for him/her.
    In the merit pay system, what teacher will welcome problem students? What teacher would volunteer to accept students with learning disabilities? Why would any teacher want to teach any other student except the "good" students? All teachers would want to teach AP courses. There's no incentive to teach all students.

    Furthermore, if improvement was all that was needed, won't teachers just grade more leniently, resulting in inflated GPA scores? What other "average student data" are you referring to if not grades?
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

Page 18 of 30 FirstFirst ... 8161718192028 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •