View Poll Results: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

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  • Yes, entirely.

    7 10.29%
  • Yes, partially

    19 27.94%
  • No, partially

    10 14.71%
  • No, entirely

    29 42.65%
  • Other.

    3 4.41%
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Thread: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

  1. #161
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No....all the government has to do is repeal the law protecting people who refuse to work. If a person doesn't want to work, the employer, who owns the job, should have every freedom to hire someone who will do the job instead, and let the other go, forever.
    Nike moved overseas in order to take advantage of non-unionized Indonesian kids in order to make a profit, car manufacturers have moved to Mexico for the same reason. You know, but won't admit, that conditions without the power of the union would be just as ****ty as they were in the late 1800's if you had your way, the question is, why do you want your way? It is about balance and you seem to want it all...
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  2. #162
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    I've seen engineers with degrees from MIT and from Bum****you. The peice of paper isn't a guarantee that the guy holding it knows bolt thread shear from buckling.
    What Californian University would you classify as a "Bum****you" then that would graduate a person that is not worthy? Also, MIT, Harvard and such produce some great minds, yes, but so do the "lesser" colleges, many great minds fell through the cracks or couldn't afford high tuitions, also just because a person has the best mind in their field does not mean that they can teach.

    Teaching is much more than content knowledge and any person in debating education or teachers that does not know this is at an extreme disadvantage...
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  3. #163
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    And does the union ONLY defend the best teachers, or do they defend the incompetents also?
    I know of no mechanism to defend incompetent teachers. They are usually weeded out by the school administrators.
    Last edited by Catawba; 02-03-10 at 11:34 PM.
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  4. #164
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    You say the SAT's are a joke, I don't really care, then we have Ethereal saying the college degrees don't mean much... well, then lawyers and doctors and businessmen and accountants are all subpar as well.
    I'm saying college degrees don't automatically denote competence or intelligence. It's a lot harder to get a degree in biochemistry than communications.

    Compare these and tell me I'm wrong:

    Loyola University Chicago- Bachelor of Science (B.S.) Major in Chemistry with Emphasis in Biochemistry
    Loyola University Chicago- MAJOR REQUIREMENTS for Communcation Studies

    By the way, graduating from medical school or law school is probably a hundred times harder than becoming a public school teacher.

  5. #165
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I'm saying college degrees don't automatically denote competence or intelligence. It's a lot harder to get a degree in biochemistry than communications.

    Compare these and tell me I'm wrong:

    Loyola University Chicago- Bachelor of Science (B.S.) Major in Chemistry with Emphasis in Biochemistry
    Loyola University Chicago- MAJOR REQUIREMENTS for Communcation Studies

    By the way, graduating from medical school or law school is probably a hundred times harder than becoming a public school teacher.
    I am not saying that you are wrong, because I feel that we agree and are both correct. What I am saying is that you are not correct regarding the fact that teachers are educated people.

    Look, to say that all teachers are not Rocket Scientists is ridiculous. Your argument is like saying, "hey the athletes on the 49ers suck because they aren't on the Colts" or even better, Kobe Bryant should never have been allowed into the NBA because he did not become as qualified as a person that went and learned from Coach K at Duke winning national titles with 4 extra years under his belt. You also discount the innate ability regarding what it takes to teach. My dad is a top scientist in his field worldwide, PhD the works, he freely admits that he would not be a good high school teacher, same with my brother who is a CPA and now joining the FBI... he taught a course at college level and admits taht he could not with younger people.

    All I am saying is that you guys are not seeing, or wanting to hear more truth about what it takes to teach. I am hearing you guys that there are a lot of crappy teachers, but not the majority, and even many crappy ones would not be as crappy if they had a higher percentage of students that cared or parents that backed them up...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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  6. #166
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Nike moved overseas in order to take advantage of non-unionized Indonesian kids in order to make a profit...
    It benefits both the American consumer and the Indonesian laborer; so, if by "take advantage of" you mean "give them a job they desperately need that no American would take anyway" then I agree.

    ...car manufacturers have moved to Mexico for the same reason.
    Exactly. Unions increase unemployment. I'm glad you're on board!



    You know, but won't admit, that conditions without the power of the union would be just as ****ty as they were in the late 1800's if you had your way...
    No one is suggesting we get rid of unions. We're simply saying that the government should not enact favorable legislation on their behalf.

  7. #167
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Large collectives have to act on rules and procedures that can be revised only sparingly, and only with great effort, over a long period of time if the organization is to be effective in any sense at all. It is inevitable some people will exploit those longstanding rules and procedures to not live up to their highest potential. 'Incompetent' is a very relativistic notion anyway.
    It's relative, but when the union makes it impossible to fire ANYONE then they're certainly defending some incompetent teachers. This makes the education system much WORSE off, not better. The good teachers don't need a union to save their job; they know that they aren't expendable. Many good teachers resent the union.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games
    The first thing a realist learns about human social reality is that society rarely works according to your specifications.
    It would be a lot closer to my specifications without teachers' unions.
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  8. #168
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    It benefits both the American consumer and the Indonesian laborer; so, if by "take advantage of" you mean "give them a job they desperately need that no American would take anyway" then I agree.
    Consumer benefit... yes.
    Indonesian benefit... yes and no. The immediate is yes, they get a job. Ultimately though, it is next to slave labor, and taking advantage of the fact that they had nothing so we can give them next to nothing and undercut the American worker is a pretty poor argument in my opinion.

    Exactly. Unions increase unemployment. I'm glad you're on board!

    Nope, nice try man. Greedy corporations increase unemployment by caring about nothing but the bottom dollar at the cost of people's lives, and that is a big BIG problem with the slave mentality of the stock market.

    No one is suggesting we get rid of unions. We're simply saying that the government should not enact favorable legislation on their behalf.
    Agreed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  9. #169
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I know of no mechanism to defend incompetent teachers. They are usually weeded out by the school administrators.
    The mechanism works something like this:

    The school administrator tries to fire an incompetent teacher (or more realistically doesn't even TRY because they know it's futile). The union then raises hell, and will fight to no end to protect that person's job. It is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to fire a teacher for ANY reason.

    Unless the teacher ****ed one of their students, it's pretty much a lost cause to try to fire them...and even if they DID **** one of their students, there's a lot of red tape and the outcome is by no means guaranteed.
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  10. #170
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    Re: Are Teacher Unions a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I am not saying that you are wrong, because I feel that we agree and are both correct. What I am saying is that you are not correct regarding the fact that teachers are educated people.

    Look, to say that all teachers are not Rocket Scientists is ridiculous. Your argument is like saying, "hey the athletes on the 49ers suck because they aren't on the Colts" or even better, Kobe Bryant should never have been allowed into the NBA because he did not become as qualified as a person that went and learned from Coach K at Duke winning national titles with 4 extra years under his belt. You also discount the innate ability regarding what it takes to teach. My dad is a top scientist in his field worldwide, PhD the works, he freely admits that he would not be a good high school teacher, same with my brother who is a CPA and now joining the FBI... he taught a course at college level and admits taht he could not with younger people.

    All I am saying is that you guys are not seeing, or wanting to hear more truth about what it takes to teach. I am hearing you guys that there are a lot of crappy teachers, but not the majority, and even many crappy ones would not be as crappy if they had a higher percentage of students that cared or parents that backed them up...
    I don't blame the teachers for the failure of students. That's entirely the parents' fault.

    My problem is that public school teachers are generally overcompensated and hard to terminate. Unionization and labor laws have served to insulate them from the pressure of the free market.

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